Amazing grace with piano lead

[HalfBlindLefty]

download/file.php?id=70

[Hansen]

Excellent backing/practice track. Anyone, including Blind Lefty, know where I can get more tracks like this?

[VikingBlues]

One good BT - nice addition to the piano-less one.

[HalfBlindLefty]

Ghehe seems like some people woke up from hibernation

I posted this track in may 2010, it's from karaoke-version com

[VikingBlues]

Ghehe seems like some people woke up from hibernation

I posted this track in may 2010, it's from karaoke.nl

I try not to wake up at all this time of the year - and I have difficulty remembering what happened yesterday!!

I must have missed BT version with the piano last time - I've only got the one without the piano on my hard disk.

[HalfBlindLefty]

I've only got the one without the piano on my hard disk.

Mhh.... Ik keep my harddisks save, so I'm not at risk of a piano being on it....

[VikingBlues]

I've only got the one without the piano on my hard disk.

Mhh.... Ik keep my harddisks save, so I'm not at risk of a piano being on it....

Nice one HBL!

BTW I found it - in a folder called Amazing Grace - well who'd have thought it was there! With a couple of attempts I'd done to play along with the piano-less BT - guess that was why I didn't remember the piano one. They're tuneful enough attempts, but pretty well every note was on the beat, as I tended to do way back in the dim distant past of May 2010.

So here's an up to date attempt - with the VSA590. Both pickups selected except the mid section on bridge pickup - played with short finger nails (broke a few these last few weeks) and my thumbs out of commission - broken nail and big split in the skin just where I'd be hitting the string.

I've tried to incorporate somehing I've just found out on scales. Now if I've got it right (!!?? IF ??!!) if you have a piece in C which has chords OK for C Dorian (which this pretty well does) you can also play D Phrygian scale notes and G Aeolian notes, although with the D Phrygian and G Aeolian the notes best suited for passing notes are different positions on the fretboard to usual if that makes sense. This changes where and how you play note patterns on the fretboard. Or something!

download/file.php?id=798

I had hoped my improv had some sort of connection to the tune but my better half didn't recognise it when it was playing back a few minutes ago .. so .. ho-hum, maybe not.

[HalfBlindLefty]

VB, you called your mp3 grace notes.... You better rename it.... to AMAZING grace notes.
Well done,
You keep impressing me with your theory and scale knowledge...
Well done.

One remark, If you wanna have some fun, play question and answer with the piano :)

[vancouverois]

..."I had hoped my improv had some sort of connection to the tune but my better half didn't recognise it when it was playing back a few minutes ago .. so .. ho-hum, maybe not. "...

Well it seems you played it as you feeled it, the result is excellent
You gave the tune a nice bluesy groove.

[VikingBlues]

Well it seems you played it as you feeled it, the result is excellent
You gave the tune a nice bluesy groove.

Thanks VC - it's also got something to do with the VSA590 - it wants to play this sort of slow bluesy music.

You keep impressing me with your theory and scale knowledge...
Well done.
One remark, If you wanna have some fun, play question and answer with the piano :)

Thank you HBL. You know - now that you mention the question and answer scenario with the piano I think "how did I miss that idea"!!! Good advice. I notice now that I'm mostly playing over the top of the piano lines - wouldn't make me popular with the piano player.

BTW - my theory and scale knowledge is limited to visualising the notes on the fretboard and there only seems to be one teacherthat can get my thick head to get to that stage. I knew of modes for years but just couldn't get to grips with them at all. One 5 minute lesson from David Wallimann showing how they fitted around around the pentatonic scales and it all made sense from at least a physical playing the notes point of view. One recent 5 minute lesson on the relationship of the church modes and the idea of playing the 3 scales on the one piece also clicked into place. I don't know how he does it, but I'm grateful he does.

So - a revisit with a version to keep the piano player happier will probably be in order before too long and I look forward to it.

At least playing and recording this has excorcised "Nobody Knows When You're Down and Out" from my head - it was lodged there for a fortnight and drove me nuts!

[Hansen]

VB, Nice job covering Amazing Grace. I've been doing something similar, with less skill, of course. I noticed that the notes I use correspond to the A minor blues scale: A,C,D, Eb, E, and G. In your cover, sometimes, your notes are gettin lost in the piano. Can you add something to the tone of your guitar to distinguish it more clearly from the piano notes? In cases where you and the piano are hitting the same note, I would like your guitar to stand out instead of being immersed in the piano note. I'm using an acoustic guitar, so I can't do much about it, maybe add a bend.

When playing a blues lead over a song like Amazing Grace, or any song, what key is the blues lead played in? For instance, in this case, I play in the A minor scale over the piano. What key is the piano playing in? Is there a "rule" about such things, as when playing "cross" harp, or is it just a matter of what sounds good [Dumb question, I admit]?

[VikingBlues]

VB, Nice job covering Amazing Grace. I've been doing something similar, with less skill, of course. I noticed that the notes I use correspond to the A minor blues scale: A,C,D, Eb, E, and G. In your cover, sometimes, your notes are gettin lost in the piano. Can you add something to the tone of your guitar to distinguish it more clearly from the piano notes? In cases where you and the piano are hitting the same note, I would like your guitar to stand out instead of being immersed in the piano note. I'm using an acoustic guitar, so I can't do much about it, maybe add a bend.

When playing a blues lead over a song like Amazing Grace, or any song, what key is the blues lead played in? For instance, in this case, I play in the A minor scale over the piano. What key is the piano playing in? Is there a "rule" about such things, as when playing "cross" harp, or is it just a matter of what sounds good [Dumb question, I admit]?

Thank you Hansen - glad you liked it. The problem with merging with the piano notes is really, as HBL pointed out so perceptively, that I should let the lead piano have it's say and talk with it, not over it! I could up the volume of my guitar part, but it would unbalance the sound between guitar and piano - possibly playing around with compression might help but ....? I suspect I need to do a new version where I am more professional and have a proper piano / guitar dialogue, which I'm inclined to have a go at. I'm a bit embarassed that I had to have this pointed out.

As far as the query on what lead to be played. Not a dumb question at all!! I'm not sure I'm the best person to tackle this query as my knowledge of theory, beyond knowing what patterns of notes look like on the fretboard, is limited. I'm mostly trying to play what I hear singing in my head and applying waht I hear to those patterns.

But - yes - the bottom line is that it is what sounds good that matters most - and if what sounds good doesn't fit the standard theory too well, my view is that it's best not to worry too much, or indeed at all, about that.

I don't have too much time at present - I'd quite like to put a wee recording together to follow up what I'm about to say below - but that's this evening at the earliest. I'll just talk about the Box 1 Minor Pentatonic Shape in the following two paragraphs - it will be complicated enough, but obviously the principles of this will apply all over the fretboard whether Pentatonic Box 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5.

Ignoring, for the moment, the piano. If I play the same BT without the piano I find myself honing in on the C minor pentatonic. Now I don't know for sure that is the correct one but it's what my ears are telling me. To keep it simple (NOT!!) the box 1 shape at the 8th fret being 8th and 11th frets on 6, 8th and 10th frets on 5, 8th and 10th frets on 4, 8th and 10th frets on 3, 8th and 11th frests on 2, 8th and 11th frets on 1. The notes of C, Eb, F, G, Bb, C, Eb, F, G, Bb, C, Eb. (I had to work out the note names there - I don't know names of notes in each key - that shows my wobbly theory)! I can then add in my favourite add on note in this pattern of Gb - eg 3rd string 11th fret. I then play around with whether any of the minor modes - Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian are a good fit for the backing track. In this case to my ears Dorian is good so I can add A and D to the equation as passing notes, at the Box 1 shape for example 10th fret on both 2nd and 1st strings.

If you map out the Dorian scale over the fretboard you will see a Box 1 shape of the Minor Pentatonic appears at the 3rd fret and the 10th fret - but the additional notes with it being C Dorian that has been mapped out are, at the 3rd fret Box 1, the notes of G Aeolian and at the 10th fret of D Phrygian. Now it gets more complicated - for example if playing G Aeolian at the 3rd fret Box 1 shape the note D on the 2nd string is an often used note - but in this instance playing G Aeolian scale on a C Dorian Backing Track the D is best used only as a passing note and the Eb which is normally one of the additional notes to the Pentatonic on G Aeolian can be used a lot.

Ahhhhrrrggggh - my brain hurts!

It might help if a post a link later (if I can find it) to a teaching video by David Wallimann which covers this MUCH better than me. Something to do with the relationship of church modes????!!!

Till later ......

[VikingBlues]

This refers to the outline above in reply to Hansens query. Hope it helps.

download/file.php?id=802

0:07 - 0:39 : Trying out the basic Cm Pentatonic notes using the box 1 shape at the 8th fret.

0:41 - 0:59 : Adding in the Gb note for blues.

1:01 - 1:23 : Adding the Dorian notes using the box 1 shape at the 8th fret.

1:26 - 1:46 : Testing the G Aeolian using the Box 1 shape at the 3rd fret taking care with which are passing notes.

1:47 - 2:13 : Testing the D Phrygian using the Box 1 shape at the 10th fret taking care with which are passing notes.

2:14 - end : Put them all together.

This is the David Wallimann video about the modes. The top link of the two also takes you straight to the page with his other teaching videos:-

http://www.youtube.com/wallimann#p/u/28/TKjklX8v0wU

TKjklX8v0wU

[VikingBlues]

Can you get repeated post fatigue?

An attempt at a dialogue with ethe piano instead of a competiton, but it's been a long day. Dunno if it works.

download/file.php?id=803

[HalfBlindLefty]

MMhh doubting posting what I just recorded...... Noticed VB's last addition.

A well mine is a quick try to, after a rather day.

Oke, Playing with and around the piano... needed the first 20 seconds to re-catch the feel of the track and the next 20 or so to find my place in the track.
I tricked my guitar sound outside the stereo field of the backing track.
How ? Well to start with I used the vibratone effect on my CT and set the speaker mode from normal to differ phase between left and right.
2nd I narrowd the stereo field of the backing by putting a stereo expander effect over it and set the expansion to 50 %
Over the recorded guitar track I used the same field expansion but now set to 200%

While playing, I played around, with, and tried to answer the piano player.

I felt it was easy to tell someone to play question and answer with the piano part, without provinding a HBL-ish example.

download/file.php?id=805

[HalfBlindLefty]

Can you get repeated post fatigue?

An attempt at a dialogue with ethe piano instead of a competiton, but it's been a long day. Dunno if it works.

download/file.php?id=803

Yup it works, and yes again there are some awesome licks in there.
Funny how you take a totally different approach as I do, towards the feel and the music in this track

Still I like this one a lot.

[VikingBlues]

MMhh doubting posting what I just recorded...... Noticed VB's last addition.

A well mine is a quick try to, after a rather day.

Your recording doesn't have the sound of being rushed or not fully thought out. I hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

While playing, I played around, with, and tried to answer the piano player.
I felt it was easy to tell someone to play question and answer with the piano part, without provinding a HBL-ish example.

I like your question and answers session - you hae got a tone together that blends well into the mix and I like the balance you've got between guitar and piano. There's a feel of two musicians working together on piano and guitar on your version.

Funny how you take a totally different approach as I do, towards the feel and the music in this track

They are quite different aren't they! I like that about blues - the huge variety that can be got from a basic theme. I do feel that my recording does sound more like the guitar is a supporting role while in yours the piano and guitar are equal partners. But thanks for your encouraging words.

[vancouverois]

Well played VB, sounds good

[VikingBlues]

Well played VB, sounds good

Thanks VC - I enjoyed it, which is often not the case for the two lead line recordings - I do find the Q & A playing difficult.

Usually whenever I've tried to record a piece with two lead tracks it ends up a mess of clashing lines going all over each other and structure and melody goes off on holiday somewhere. I maybe don't give it long enough to memorise and learn properly what is on the recording before trying to play the second lead.