Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Upload and discuss your songs here. Open for Jazz and Rock, too!
Forum rules
Please do not upload songs protected by 3rd party copyright!
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Blinded by the Blues part 3 :tears:

I think I hit the jackpot with the Avion's sound and my playingstyle on this attempt, but... :yikes: :angry: :wall: :naughty:
What happened ? I didn't put my headphones on while recording and now this one is a total mess with a prior lead bleeding through :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

Oh man, I just adore the sound my Avion gives with it's pickups witch in the middle position. (remember I did perform the magnetflip on the neck pickup)
At least I was smart enough to save Cybie's settings

Damn, all was right, the mood, my fingers, my creativity the sound and it's a throw away..... :cry:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11856394

I must have been really Blinded by the Blues
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

This time a recording with less attention for the notes, but more towards making the piece a litle more interesting by adding a couple of measures that are somewhat different.
I'll keep the V4 version 12bar exclusive (mhhh) :wink:

Hope this draws some attention and new comments/critique :think:

Or it's just too bad (but somehow I don't think so :big_smile: )

download/file.php?id=2135
Attachments


Blinded by the Blues -intheworks 4 (Avion).mp3 - (5.6 MiB)

A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
VikingBlues
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by VikingBlues »

HalfBlindLefty wrote:Or it's just too bad (but somehow I don't think so :big_smile: )
You're right not to think so! My lack of response has been more down to still trying to shake off this damn virus. The worst of it's away, but I've been spending most of the last couple of days asleep and wishing my ribs didn't feel like someones been kicking them with all the coughing I've done the last week. :mercy:

That was most unfortunate with what happened with version 3 and the bleed-through. I'm impressed with how quickly you came back and tried again after that - and even more impressed with how good a quality you could come back with too after such a set-back!
HalfBlindLefty wrote:Hope this draws some attention and new comments/critique :think:
Hardly touched a guitar for a week and hardly listened to any either - so not sure if my critical faculties will be working much. :icon_whoknows:
HalfBlindLefty wrote:This time a recording with less attention for the notes, but more towards making the piece a litle more interesting
I have the feeling that the ideas of what you are wanting to play are forming and becoming clearer in your mind.

This new version, though "having less attention to the notes", and though it still has that HBL "style" to it, is somehow less generic HBL and more of a individual identity in the style of HBL .... if that makes sense. There's more range in the playing dynamics, and as I result I think it's more expressive - with more builds and eases of tension. :clap: :clap:

I do find myself struggling though with a critique. Like if I'm asked to compare two fine wines once I get past saying which one I like most I'm struggling to say why.

So - sorry I can't be more help. But I do feel your instincts are leading you in a good direction. :thumbsup:

Hope someone else can help throw some light on it for you. :fingerscrossed:

Anway - must go for a nap now. :yawn: :away:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
User avatar
vancouverois
Posts: 922
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:55 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by vancouverois »

It sounds good to me :thumbsup:
The calm and mastering of your playing makes it sound classy and soulful.

Actually, a tad more reverb for the solo part until the half of the piece may help.
I mean the background has a nice amount of reverb and the solo part sounds dry
in comparaison.

Then in the middle the reverb is modified for a while and comes back to it's original
setting. May be an even level of reverb all along the piece to keep the feel of space
and air.
Jan 15th 2007
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Thanks, the most important thing for me was the reassurance I'm on the right track. At least I take for granted that when I go as wrong as wrong can be no one here will have any doubt and just say so.

The reverb thing. I ditched the reverb for the biggest part of the lead because that was what I wanted to hear, direct honest sound, no FX. Just playing dynamics.
My amp is set to stay clean when I play moderately soft and starts to overdrive depending on how hard I pick the strings and the frequency of the notes. Lovely :dance:

Btw: I'm still baffled by the smooth, responsive way the Cybertwin goes into overdrive when pushed harder. I love using the Blackface tone stack combined with a Blackface(3) tube configuration. It wispers cleanly and cries or screams when needed.
For the cleaner part of the lead I even have set compression to OFF. The overdriven/verby part uses the same settings with just gain a tad higher while precense is set a little lower


The differences in the sound's phase when I play different notes, is caused by the pickups out of phase setup (magnet flip) and I just happen to like that this time. it sort of belongs to the feel of the song. I remember Peter Green soing songs without reverb or delay and like that aproach.
So I don't think I'm going to add reverb to the whole lead. Even more, I think I'll lessen the reverb when creating the final backing :D

Thanks for the listening and commenting while still recovering VB.
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
vancouverois
Posts: 922
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:55 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by vancouverois »

HalfBlindLefty wrote:The differences in the sound's phase when I play different notes, is caused by the pickups out of phase setup (magnet flip) and I just happen to like that this time. it sort of belongs to the feel of the song. I remember Peter Green soing songs without reverb or delay and like that aproach.
Ok, I see better now where you're heading to :thumbsup:
There is a version of "Merry go round" played this way by Gary Moore.
Can't wait for the final mix! :clap:
Jan 15th 2007
User avatar
VikingBlues
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by VikingBlues »

vancouverois wrote:There is a version of "Merry go round" played this way by Gary Moore.
Good call VC. :thumbsup: On the 1995 Gary Moore "Blues for Greeny" album.
L1uh-uBcjv4

Here's the Peter Green three piece Fleetwood Mac original on their debut alnum from 1968.
7Khxpvq1-O4

.... beautiful! :drool:
vancouverois wrote:Can't wait for the final mix! :clap:
Me too. :thumbsup:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
User avatar
MojoJim
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by MojoJim »

HBL, great piece of music. Very nuanced, very subtle in places. Very sophisticated in overall construction.

I've got a technical question. How did you mix the lead guitar? When I play the piece the rhythm parts nestle appropriately in the near background. But the lead part has terrific immediacy. I would swear that the guitar was centered exactly in the middle of my computer screen - not many inches from my nose. So close, in fact, that I feel my personal space is being breached and I want to pull back a little.

I don't think I've ever made a recording where the guitar sounded so present and so live. I feel like your guitar is right here in front of me.

Is there a mixing trick for that?

I've got KRK5 monitors sitting just to the left and right of my display and elevated about 6 inches. It's a pretty good listening environment - but that still doesn't explain the effect I'm getting.
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Thanks Jim :) I still have some work to do, but I get more font of the piece every day.

The recording/Mixing.

I'll start with what I think is the reason for the lead guitars closeness. I think it's not really the mix, but the fact that the backing uses amp tremolo and reverb and the lead has no reverb at all. I didn't use any mixing tricks, even more, I mixed the piece about the same way I do most tracks.

The Cybertwin is a semi stereo amp with two 12" speakers. One speaker is picked up by a Shure Pg58 and the other speaker by a Shure PG57 microphone. Both microphones are about 10 cm away from the speakercloth.
On my D&R mixer I have panned the both channels full left and right. The mixer's output goes into my M-audio Fasttrack Pro and from there into my DAW software.
In the DAW I have again panned the mic channels full left and right.
The reverb from the guitar backing comes from my Cybertwin. I think the tremolo might add to the effect btw.

The lead is recorded the using the same setup, but during mixing I have the channels panned 50% both in stead off 100%
Since I use no added compression, the full dynamics of my playing gets recorded with an ultra dry sound. Add the "natural" phase changes caused by the magnet flip (I think) and there you are, straight into your face lead guitar.

Think of it, we associate reverb with room/distance. Put that together with a dry sound and there you are :)
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

By the way, I use an Onkyo A-100 amp with Interaudio (by Bose) speakers
Speakers are 6 to 7 inches elevated and 1.20 meter apart (2 computer screens + some extra space)
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
MojoJim
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by MojoJim »

Thanks for the input, HBL. I'll have to do some experiments to see if I can get close to what you described.

I don't have the gear (or playing ability) that you have but I can run my Strat through my Fender Super Champ XD, then a Shure SM57, then a Presonus Firestudio Mobile and into my DAW.

I should be able to come close to getting the effect that you did. We'll see.

Thanks again.
User avatar
VikingBlues
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by VikingBlues »

Thank you for the detail of the set up for the recording HBL - very instructive, And thanks to MojoJim for prompting the answer with the questions. :clap:
HalfBlindLefty wrote:The Cybertwin is a semi stereo amp with two 12" speakers. One speaker is picked up by a Shure Pg58 and the other speaker by a Shure PG57 microphone. Both microphones are about 10 cm away from the speakercloth.
I see they are both the same distance from the speaker cloth but are the two microphones also positioned similarly to each other for angle and for position relative to the centre of the speaker cone?

I'm encouraged that you can get sounds of this quality from the PG series. I have been using a PG57 for few months now on recordings from the amp - the results have sounded good, but I was wondering if I was just kidding myself that buying at the lower cost was a good idea. Must get around to replacing my condenser mic before long - never been the same since it crashed to the floor.
HalfBlindLefty wrote:Think of it, we associate reverb with room/distance. Put that together with a dry sound and there you are :)
That makes a lot of sense - well thought out. :thumbsup: Don't our ears play some interesting tricks on us.
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

I thought I should test my own theory about the lead and the reverb. Does reverb make the lead go back further :think:
This is not a new recording, I just bluntly added reverb to the guitar tracks.

BTW the lead guitars panning left/right during mixing wasn't 50/-50 but 20/-20 percent :shy:

Ok guys, you'll be the reverb theory judges :beer:

download/file.php?id=2141
Attachments


Blinded Blues 3 Avion_lead reverb.mp3 - (5.46 MiB)

A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

VB, the PG series microphones do a good job, you have been listening to two of them on many of my recordings.

My mics are 10 cm from the speaker cloth 10 cm off center with a 5-10 degree angle towards the center.

I have been giving thought to the idea of micing amps with single speaker on both sides. front and back. Still gotta test that though
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
VikingBlues
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by VikingBlues »

Thank you for the more detailed info on the positioning of the microphones.

Shure label the PG series as "the entry point to professional Shure quality" and I'm thinking with the sonic restrictions caused by mp3 format that they should be fine for the quality standard of recording needed. The HBL catalogue of recordings would certainly support that view. :D
HalfBlindLefty wrote:I thought I should test my own theory about the lead and the reverb. Does reverb make the lead go back further :think:
This is not a new recording, I just bluntly added reverb to the guitar tracks.
.................
Ok guys, you'll be the reverb theory judges :beer:
Judge #1 here ...... with the reverb added to the lead it sounds loud compared to the backing BUT it does seem to have retreated back more into the distance compared to the dry recording. I think you've shown your theory has merit. :thumbsup:
HalfBlindLefty wrote:Thanks for the listening and commenting while still recovering VB.
Not a problem - listening was an oasis of pleasure in the bleak day! Still recovering (seems never-ending), but at least the uncontrollable coughing seems to have gone - still got those sore ribs though. :alright:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
User avatar
MojoJim
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by MojoJim »

Judge #2 checking in.....

With the reverb applied the lead seems to fit with the background better. Without the reverb I felt as though there were some guys playing rhythm a few feet away and a guy playing lead about six inches from my nose.

With the reverb the lead is still clearly on top of the rhythm but is a bit farther away and more a part of the piece as a whole.

To my ear, the reverb seems to reduce the dynamic range of the lead. It makes sense that the reverb would soften the sound of the lead and make it a bit fuller - but I don't know why it would reduce the dynamic range. It may just be that the lead is not so cutting and somehow that gives the impression of quieter loud parts and louder quiet parts. I think that would be the definition of a reduced dynamic range. Almost as though there was a compressor on the lead.

I'm not sure which version I prefer. The first version has lots of life in it. The reverb version is more conventionally acceptable. I think I like the first version best.
User avatar
tytlblues
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:34 am

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by tytlblues »

Well, I am no recording expert by any means. But, I think the majority of us on this board play our guitars and record via a USB interface, and into out DAW's. Not that this is bad....but the guitar is a mono instrument. Many interfaces record in stereo, or you can record in mono, double the track, offset it a few beats to simulate stereo.....but... that is all you are doing...simulating stereo. The guitar chord we plug into is mono, so even if your USB interface records in stereo, it is only simulating it also.

HBL, on the other hand, is recording via a stereo setup, with twin mics...so I would think that this makes a great difference in the recording quality which he achieves. Also, I would say, his playing and technique goes along way in achieving that great sound also!!

As far as panning things left and right, and what not....there is many different techniques for mastering a good recording...and it has to do with finding a "space" for every track to reside in, so each track can come through with vibrance, and sound really good.

I am often amazed at the so called professional CD's we buy....and how some sound so crappy, but other sound so great that you would swear that the band/performer is in the room with you!!

What ever the skill involved, it seems HBL has mastered it very well!!! and like I said, a great guitarist can make a crappy guitar sound good.....much of the tone IS in the fingers!!!


Excellent as always HBL!!!!
Tytlblues

" A blues guitarist plays 3 chords in front of thousands of people.......a Jazz guitarist plays thousands of chords in front of 3 people"
User avatar
VikingBlues
Posts: 4378
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by VikingBlues »

MojoJim wrote:To my ear, the reverb seems to reduce the dynamic range of the lead.
:thumbsup: You're quite right - I hear that effect too! Though why it should be ....... ? :icon_whoknows:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Thank you Tytl :shy:

About dynamics and reverb and instruments positions withing the stereo image:

It could well be a science all by itself, but there is some logic even we, who judge only by ear can put into place.
First : The reverb I added on the last version is a stereo studio reverb, put on to a pair of 20% panned mono channels. (80% dry signal against 35% reverb)
I think that if we would meassure the spread of the channels (20% off center to either side) we would see the reverb widening the original stereo channel, by traveling to the 100% panned position on both sides ( actually the speakers positions)
That, I think will pull the lead track more together with the backing.

Due to the fact that reverb trails after the original sound and sounds wider, I guess that will even out a portion of the volume changes on the next tone or tones.
Actually I think it's the silence between the notes that accentuate the playing /volume dynamics

Try for yourself, record two dry guitar notes and look at the volume view in your daw, now add reverb to the note either by playing with reverb or adding it in your daw. (copy the output result to another channel)
Noow look at the signals and you'll notice the gaps between the notes are filled with reverb signal, resulting in a more filled up track.
So concluding it just may be not a case of actually compressing the guitar notes sound, but more the filling of the gaps between the notes with sound/reverb.

Mhh not my best post, but I hope it paints the picture clear enough
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
User avatar
HalfBlindLefty
Admin
Posts: 1999
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Blinded b/t Blues V3 and V4

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Ok, a follow-up on the last post, this time with examples. Sorry for the big pictures, but this time I needed the size :whistle:
If you look close enough you'll see that what I said in my previous post is cloese enough to reality :)
There was some volume difference after I added the reverb. For convenience and viewing ease, I adjusted the volume of the track with reverb a little

Note : on my screen, I can view both pictures at the same time for comparence
Just put both sliders on the right of both pictures in the middle and adjust the browsers view with it's own big slider so you can view both


Lead Dry

download/file.php?id=2143
Lead_dry.jpg
Lead_dry.jpg (107.62 KiB) Viewed 12017 times


Lead with reverb, 30% reverb/80 % dry signal.
download/file.php?id=2144
Lead_reverb_30-80.jpg
Lead_reverb_30-80.jpg (108.85 KiB) Viewed 12017 times
Attachments


Lead reverb 30-80.mp3 - (95.53 KiB)


Lead dry.mp3 - (95.53 KiB)

A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
Post Reply