GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

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VikingBlues
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GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

This has to be the end of GAS for a while - funds dictate it ends now.
Voc AC24TV + Nano Holy Grail & Artec Blues Overdrive
Voc AC24TV + Nano Holy Grail & Artec Blues Overdrive
100_2359Min.jpg (189.43 KiB) Viewed 19178 times
No surprise to anyone who knows me that my first all tube amp should be a Vox! :roll: Fell for it big time at the "Live Music" shop in Edinburgh. Add the Electro Harmonix Nano Holy Grail Reverb and Viking was getting a good vibe and it was an easy decision. Fortunately I've an old Artec Blues Overdrive which has been gathering dust or I'd have been going into debt, and it allows me to tweak the sound nicely - even at 1/4 watt I'd be getting neighbours complaints if it was full on. Using all three items together tonight with the Tokai and teh "Tele" and I've been like a pig in clover. :big_smile:

If I can get to grips with recording by microphone I'll try and post a wee demo, but I'm finding just playing is all I want to do just now. :banana:

It's great too that I've finally found a guitar shop in Edinburgh that I don;t dread visiting to try out equipment. They carry a good range of stock, including second hand, have a nice relaxed ambience, and is run by a very knowlegable and friendly guy who doesn't make me feel like an idiot (almost unique among guitar shop staff I have met). I'm not just saying that because he's a Tokai fan - although I did get him to have a wee shot on the LC85 - I now know that in the right hands it does the Les Paul rock sound to perfection - even through a 4 Watt amp. :clap:

Still, just 231 days till Christmas - now what do I need next???! :lol:
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Blindboy
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by Blindboy »

SWEET!!! :drool:
Not much inspires like a really cool amp. :amp: :music2: Looking forward to hearing some VB through a genuine tube amp. :thumbsup:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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Strummer07
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by Strummer07 »

Looking Good VB !! :thumbsup:
You've even got a photo with the sun shining neatly on the Amp !!

Your apartment must be slowly filling up !!
All essential kit mind you !! :lol:
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HalfBlindLefty
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Congrats on that sweet amp VB... darn, now I gotta come over and have a stab at it myself and jam together with you :)

Hurry with the demo. about mic recording, put the mic off center slightly towards the rim, pointing a litle to the center.
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

Blindboy wrote:SWEET!!! :drool:
Not much inspires like a really cool amp. :amp: :music2: Looking forward to hearing some VB through a genuine tube amp. :thumbsup:
Thanks BB. All I need to do now is learn how to play it properly. :roll: I was very impressed with the guitar shop man's sound when he tried out my Tokai through it - a real Les Paul firework display. :pray:
HalfBlindLefty wrote:Congrats on that sweet amp VB... darn, now I gotta come over and have a stab at it myself and jam together with you :)
Hurry with the demo. about mic recording, put the mic off center slightly towards the rim, pointing a litle to the center.
Thanks HBL - I'm still working on getting the best out of playing it. I'm amazed at how responsive it is to the way you play the notes on the guitar, both with tone and volume - of course it's responsive to errors as well. :alright: Also amazed how loud even just 1/4 watt can be! Maybe next time we move it'll be to a detached house? Choose your house on the basis of your guitar amp. :big_smile:

You anticipated my next post - thanks for the advice on the mic set up! :thumbsup:

I'll have a go at recording before too long - still working at the set up on the "Tele" between various weekend activities. Have got the "Tele" close to where my last one was, and similar to my Hagstrom set up. Neither get near the Tokai set up though and I guess that's why the Tokai plays so effortlessly by comparison.
1). The Tokai "Nut" spec is .5mm bass side and .25mm treble side for gap from top of first fret to bottom of string. The Hagstrom and Tele are both .6mm bass and .5mm treble.
2). The Tokai "Action" spec is 1.2mm bass side and 0.7mm treble side for distance between top of 12th fret and bottom of string when capo put on 1st fret. The Hagtrom is 1.5mm and 0.9mm - the "Tele" 1.2mm and 1.2mm.
3). The Tokai "Relief" spec is .15mm bass side and .05mm treble side for biggest gap between top of fret and bottom of string between 5th and 12th fret when capo at 1st fret and string pressed down at final fret. The Hagstrom at .4mm and .4mm and the "Tele" at .4mm and .3mm come nowhere near, particularly on the treble side. The Tokai neck is striaght as an arrow. None of the other guitars I've ever had have come close to this either.
Strummer07 wrote:Looking Good VB !! :thumbsup:
You've even got a photo with the sun shining neatly on the Amp !!
Your apartment must be slowly filling up !!
All essential kit mind you !! :lol:
Thanks Strummer. I was just putting the amp away after playing when I noticed the way the late evening sun highlighted the colours. The camera didn't quite catch the sparkle though.

Falling over gear wherever I turn - 3 electric guitars, 1 acoustic, 1 bass, 2 amps and drawers stuffed with recording interfaces, fx units/pedals, etc. As you say - essential kit, although I've still no P90 guitar and no resonator, and no guitar set up for slide, and no guitar with open tuning, and ....... :roll:

Long way to go to compete with some of the collections I've seen on-line though.
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

HalfBlindLefty wrote:Hurry with the demo. about mic recording, put the mic off center slightly towards the rim, pointing a litle to the center.
I think I put the mic a bit too far off centre. :wall: If I understand it right, the further off the centre of the cone the more hiighs are lost? The recorded sound here has a lot less highs than the actual sound - I've been pleasantly surprised how much highs the AC4TV has but I wouldn't think that from this recording - I have always had to fight to tame the bass and keep the highs up on the Valvetronix.

I'm having to use a condensor mic (I know dynamic is the normal but I don't have one, and I've spent all my birthday allowance!). I've had to keep the sound clean and the volume pretty low on this first run through due to time of day and neighbours etc. :sad:

I also had very little time after all the faffing around with setting the Tonelab to no amp, no cabinet, no effects etc, getting the amp and the nano holy grail and blues o/d pedal (really just using level control) in place and the mic in place and all wired up and then finding the PC was getting upset about the buffers level which was only eventually cured by rebooting.

Anyway the first attempt sounds liek this:-

download/file.php?id=78
Attachments


Vox AC4TV - first test - clean
VoxTest1.mp3 - (1.79 MiB)

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Golfxzq
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by Golfxzq »

:dance: Great sound VB.... a little different sound for you and a little more up-tempo... but then again, you have proven yourself as a very versatile player. I really like that clean sound. Blindboy mentioned that this amp a tube amp... part of the reason for this different sound???

The mic placement discussion has brought up a question in my mind that might stimulate some opinions... I record with my computer (Kristal). Up until now I have been plugging straight from my amp to my computer and using headphones to hear the BT and my playing. Is this OK or is it better to use a mic set up? What about recording quality... OK to go straight to my computer and use Kristal or is another way preferred?
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

Golfxzq wrote::dance: Great sound VB.... a little different sound for you and a little more up-tempo... but then again, you have proven yourself as a very versatile player. I really like that clean sound. Blindboy mentioned that this amp a tube amp... part of the reason for this different sound???

The mic placement discussion has brought up a question in my mind that might stimulate some opinions... I record with my computer (Kristal). Up until now I have been plugging straight from my amp to my computer and using headphones to hear the BT and my playing. Is this OK or is it better to use a mic set up? What about recording quality... OK to go straight to my computer and use Kristal or is another way preferred?
Thanks Golfxzq. Yup, there is a big difference in the sound, which will be down to being all tube - the Vox Valvetronix Amp and the Tonelab ST I have used have a tube but only in the power amp section, not the pre amp. The AC4TV has tubes in both. The tone of the AC4TV is not hugely different in its overall type of sound to the AC30 simulation on the old amp or the tonelab, but the response from the amp to changes in playing and guitar controls is much bigger. Also to get away from clean sound requires, even at 1/4 watt quite a big dose of volume, which with living in a flat, will not often be easy / possible - there is no gain control so any "crunch" has to come from volume and the tubes being worked hard. I tend to play cleanish sound anyway, so not a big issue for me.

My impression is that, if it is done right, there can be a lot to gain in sound from a mic recording. Time will tell if I can get to grips with recording it "right". I'm already very aware of how much more subtle variation can be put into each note by what the player does on the guitar with fingers, pick, guitar controls.

As far as recorded sound goes here's a link to an old thread on the old forum where HBL details his recording set up [25 and 26 Jan postings give a lot of detail].

http://12bar.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2850&p=2

I will admit to having none of the finer detail (yet?) of foam sound blockers etc, but I'm not using speakers when I record, just headphones. I've been listening / watching some YouTube videos on mic recording guitars - there's some pretty huge differences in recorded sound just due to mic placement. There's is also the effect of room acoustics and amp placement within the room. Aaaaargh. :think:

There's some "black arts" to get to grips with here yet so that recorded sound can match up to the "real" sound coming from the amp.

[youtube]obLFWa5TxzA[/youtube]
[youtube]OUIxxmykEz0[/youtube]
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Blindboy
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by Blindboy »

:clap: Whoo hoo!
Sounds excellent! A tube amp is just more dynamic, isn't it?
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HalfBlindLefty
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Sounds awesome ( I happen to hate to much high freqs) :clap: :clap:

Now wait till the neighbours are not @ home and turn it up !
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

HalfBlindLefty wrote:Now wait till the neighbours are not @ home and turn it up !
I'm still waiting for that moment!! :motz:

Still finding my way into this new playing style that an amp like this requires. Only a limited time tonight to play, but for the first time I plugged the Hagstrom Viking Deluxe Semi-Acoustic in. WOW!!! What a very different sound - you can hear it's semi-hollow with such clarity! :clap: :banana:

I see now what people have meant when they talk about the extra dynamics and tone of a tube amp. :thumbsup:
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HalfBlindLefty
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

VikingBlues wrote:I see now what people have meant when they talk about the extra dynamics and tone of a tube amp. :thumbsup:
Generally speaking you are right.. still when I compare my CT to a tube amp I feel it acts and reacts the same as the tube amp does :think:
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

HalfBlindLefty wrote:
VikingBlues wrote:I see now what people have meant when they talk about the extra dynamics and tone of a tube amp. :thumbsup:
Generally speaking you are right.. still when I compare my CT to a tube amp I feel it acts and reacts the same as the tube amp does :think:
I guess what I said should be extended to cover getting the extra dynamics and tone of a better quality amp, regardless of type. :icon_whoknows:

I've gone from an amp with volume, bass, treble, gain, master volume, amp sims, cabinet sims, and fx including reverb to an amp which costs 50% more but just has volume and a treble roll off. The extra cost despite the loss of added extras might just be because the basic amp quality is far better - therefore the extra dynamics and tone sort if comes with the territory regardless of tubes. Not just down to price though - there were other amps in the same price range as the AC4TV I tried and I wasn't so keen on and I wouldn't have wanted to take them home.

Not that I want to "rubbish" my old Valvetronix which has done me great service - it sounds so much betterthan the Marshall practice amp I had before - might have been partly the power amp tube, but also due to it being a much better quality amp generally reflected in it being double the price of the Marshall. I always feel a bit sorry for a piece of equipment that gets demoted to the reserves despite doing a good job. :sad:
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HalfBlindLefty
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

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VikingBlues wrote:I guess what I said should be extended to cover getting the extra dynamics and tone of a better quality amp, regardless of type. :icon_whoknows:
:
Ha ha, no :) It is just that I think there are some amps, that are not full tube amps, that do have the "tuby" quality and (dynamic) range and I happen to own one of those. :eye_rub:
There is a huge difference in sound when you compare solid state amps to tube amps, you are right about that. posting.php?mode=quote&f=5&p=847#
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

I've really not had proper time to spend with the Vox AC4TV yet on the recording side of things - only two goes including today. :sad:

I've been getting some practice in at just playing through it and either the sound is getting better or I'm learning to play through the tubes system better, or maybe i'm just getting used to the sound. I've noticed one huge difference in guitar sound and that's the Hagstrom Viking Deluxe which sounds like a much more expensive guitar through the new amp. :thumbsup: The Tokai and the "Vintage" Tele copy both sound better through the new amp but there's not such a huge difference with them. The Hagstrom now sounds like in some styles / circumstances it could challenge the Tokai. I have too now found that I can play the Tokai using the treble pickup and not feel the urge to immediately go back to the both pickups setting.

I've tried to do a bit of recording today before the weekend dissapears in a puff of smoke, and I've been combining trying to work out recording by mic and balancing the sound for the new set up with playing around with new backing tracks and trying out a wee bit of experimenting with modes. I've sorta worked out what a mode is - basically the same as all the other modes but with a note or two that's different - the main thing that matters still is getting my brain to know what note is going to sound right with the chord / progression in place. :wall: :alright:

download/file.php?id=81
The Hagstrom Viking Deluxe with this one and I hit pretty well the notes I intended whether Aeolian or Pentatonic but it sounds a bit hesitant / off in timing in places as I didn't get the sound balance quite right and wasn't always hearing myself properly in the mix. Not unhappy with it though.

download/file.php?id=82
Mixolydian and Pentatonic on this one. The "Vintage" Tele Copy for the first minute, the Hagstrom for the next and the Tokai for the third. Musically it's a bit average and not as blues as I'd like but it does, to my ears, sound like three different guitars (they were all on treble pickup and similar tone control settings), and the Vox AC4TV does that for me in a way the Valvetronix didn't, but I still am not happy with how well the recorded sound matches the real sound. I'd be interested on any views on the overall sound(s). I don't think I had the mic as well positioned on this track as the Snowy Afternoon one.

The trouble is it takes 10 minutes to set everything up and the same to put them away and with very limited time free at the moment - well it's difficult to test things out properly. :motz:
Attachments


Mixo Zone - Mixolydian and Pentatonic
Mixo Zone.mp3 - (2.83 MiB)


Snowy Afternoon - Aeolian and Pentatonic
Snowy Afternoon.mp3 - (2.15 MiB)

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weelie
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by weelie »

Love the Hagström track!

The tones don't differ that much on the other one, I bet the difference is greater live. Interesting that you say they are all on bridge pickup...?!

You seem to "put down" the Hagström (compared to your Tokai) often, and at least the one I played in a store here sounded great for quite a cheap ES-335 knock-off! As does yours in your recordings above.
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Both sound great !
I guess it's true... new good equipment gives a player a boost
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by VikingBlues »

weelie wrote:Love the Hagström track!

The tones don't differ that much on the other one, I bet the difference is greater live. Interesting that you say they are all on bridge pickup...?!

You seem to "put down" the Hagström (compared to your Tokai) often, and at least the one I played in a store here sounded great for quite a cheap ES-335 knock-off! As does yours in your recordings above.
Thanks Weelie. :D You're right the tones do differ more "live" - I have a lot of work to do to get the mic recording right. :wall:
I'm really pleased at the sound the Hagstrom makes through the new amp - makes me smile. If I could only get the action on it as good as the Tokai. The tokai plays itself for me and the Hagstrom makes me work - and I'm a lazy sod at heart!! :big_smile:
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VikingBlues
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

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HalfBlindLefty wrote:Both sound great !
I guess it's true... new good equipment gives a player a boost
Thanks HBL - it really does give a boost. I'm feeling a bit guilty how much time I've been sneaking goes at it when I should have been doing "family" things. But just been short bursts of playing so no time for recording. I'm keen to get to grips with that - it "bugs" me I can't make the recording match the real sound. :motz:
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Strummer07
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Re: GAS Attack !!!!!! Part 2

Post by Strummer07 »

Two nice takes VB ....and whilst it may take a while to set it all up........... .you have your recording techniques off pat. (I think I may have just given up tbh)
Sound is really good and the new amp sounds like its worth the outlay .........there is a real clarity to both recordings and there seems to be more definition ....if that makes any sense !!

Love the way the tele cuts through and there is a nice repeating theme linking this whole "Snowy Afternoon" track.....do tell me that it isn't actually snowing with you ????

May 16th !! ..............surely it can't be ?? .mind you its raining buckets here and cold as heck .........and I was going to flash up the barbie too !!! No chance !!
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