I'm going ampless.

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DeaconBlues
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I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Many of you are aware that forum member Blindboy and I (along with three other fine musicians) provide back up (as needed) at our local open mic. Plus, we just have fun playing as a band. Until recently we've had only sporadic participation by other local musicians. lately though participation has increased and that is a very good thing indeed. :D

The downside to the upside :nuts: is volume levels are increasing and the venue(bar/restaurant) owner is not happy. He wants his patrons to be able to talk with one another while listening to our musical shenanigans. Keep in mind we are playing on a Monday night and most of the patrons early on in the evening are diners.

I love the sound of a good tube amp as much(if not more) than anybody. I've had some very nice amps over the years, many which I wish I had kept. I've still got a handful of nice vintage and boutique tube amps. I still enjoy playing these amps.The problem is most live music situations these days require a lower volume (depending on the gig). It's difficult to get a decent sound out of a tube amp at lower volume levels even with a smaller amp. You have to turn them up even to get a decent sounding clean tone, let alone any power tube overdrive.

Last week I took my 5 watt champ clone w/12" speaker and ran it via DI into the board. We actually managed to dial in a good sound through the PA with that set up.This coming Monday night I am not bringing an amp at all. I'm going to try running my guitar direct to the board via a Tech21 Character Series SansAmp. http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/sansa ... eries.html Basically, it's a DI box with amp and speaker emulation built in. I've tried it through my PA at home and it seems to work as advertised...within certain parameters. The distortion sounds are much like any other solid state device (it's analog, btw), but the clean, and clean with a bit of hair(just a little OD), sounds are very good (and those are the sounds I like best out of a tube amp). So, I'm happy...so far.

If this works out on stage at the venue, it will eliminate one more amp. We are striving to eliminate ALL amps from the stage. The keyboard and bass are already running through the board via DI's from their amps. Both could eliminate their amps easily by going direct with just a normal passive DI. Two more amps eliminated from the stage clutter and now our sound is manageable. The bar owner is happy, the patrons are happy and hopefully the musicians can hear themselves on stage better.

There will definitely be some disappointment from some of the open mic participants who like to bring their own amps. However, they will all have to adapt, and use our set ups if necessary, if we want to continue to have this venue available for this event. BTW, the bar owner has bought a Line6 HD500 http://line6.com/podhd/ and has offered it for use by anyone who would need/like to use it. He's that serious about the volume issues.
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ratfinkdan
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by ratfinkdan »

I have played on a worship team at the church that I go to for a number of years and play without an amp. Its a bit different at first but once you get used to it its fine. Monitoring is always the biggest issue because you need to hear yourself. I have used the tech 21 pedals, esspeacially like them for recording, you can treat them just like your amp, run your pedal board in front of them, in fact there are some good youtube demos of guys doing that.I have been using a digitech rp1000 which works good, althouh I was missing the programabilty of the boss units, so I traded some stuff for a boss gt6 a few weeks ago, and am really likeing it. You can set up a patch and with 1 foot switch turn on your overdrive and delay and change something else all at the same time and then switch right back to where you were, plus turn on or off a chours or tremolo with another switch. It's not the same as playing through your tube amp and I love my amps as much as anyone, but with a little tweaking you can geta pretty nice tone out of the modeling stuff and truth be told 99% of the audience can't tell the difference anyway. Plus I really like walking in twice a week with just a guitar and my gigbag, no hauling in an amp, quick setup, quick tear down. Hope that works out good for you DeaconBlues!!
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Thanks, Dan.

I think it will work just great. I agree with everything you said.

I have been playing and tweaking the Blonde pedal a bit through my own PA. It isn't quite a tube amp but it does have an amp like feel and response.

If I had a bit more money to spend, I'd seriously look into an Avid Digidesign Eleven Rack (11R) http://www.avid.com/US/products/Eleven-Rack. They have a lot of flexibility for output to different devices. The amp and cabinet modeling sound fantastic, too.
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Blindboy
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by Blindboy »

I anticipate reluctance on my part to give up playing through a tube amp. :whistle: Perhaps I can trade for a smaller amp, but I can't see myself going digital. :oldie:
Anyone in the market for a Fender 4/10 Tweed BluesDeville? I would trade for a good 15 watt tube amp... :cool:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Blindboy wrote:I anticipate reluctance on my part to give up playing through a tube amp. :whistle: Perhaps I can trade for a smaller amp, but I can't see myself going digital. :oldie:
Anyone in the market for a Fender 4/10 Tweed BluesDeville? I would trade for a good 15 watt tube amp... :cool:
:think:

Might not be as bad as you anticipate, Bb. :icon_whoknows:

You probably want to let Guy and Pete know about this so that they don't give themselves a hernia lugging their amps out for nothing.

I'll bring the Victoria for you to use and we'll DI it to the board. Maybe we can get a chance to play around with Bri's new HD500, also. :banana:
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ratfinkdan
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by ratfinkdan »

The Eleven rack looks really cool and from all the reviews, with the recent extention pack, its supposed to sound really nice! Would love to step up to that myself but by the time you buy it and add a midi controller your up over a $1000.00, maybe someday. Blindboy you can always try the tech 21 pedals like Deaconblue not a big cash out lay run your pedal board into it, if you don't like it can always use it to record with. Its analog and easy to reach down and tweak a knob if needed, But yeah it can be a scary thing to step out and play without your amp. You just have to get around the idea that it will sound and feel a bit different to you but not out front in the mix. Anyway good luck with all that.
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

The 11R is pricey, though less expensive than the Axe FX and other higher end units. I probably have as much money tied up in my small pedal board, though, as what the 11R cost and I'm only using four pedals. :think:
I'll miss my amps on stage, but really you can't crank up a small amp anymore without getting the "stink eye" from somebody. :whistle:
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Blindboy
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by Blindboy »

They can have my tube amp when they pry it from my cold dead hands... :nuts: :roll:
Seriously, I will work out some accommodation about volume, but I am not going digital.
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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vancouverois
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by vancouverois »

Blindboy wrote:They can have my tube amp when they pry it from my cold dead hands... :nuts: :roll:
Seriously, I will work out some accommodation about volume, but I am not going digital.
I am not sure how it can be set up on a tube amp, but isn't it possible to use a power attenuator to tame the amp loudness?
Last edited by vancouverois on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jan 15th 2007
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Yes, power attenuators can be placed between the amp output and speaker. I've tried a number of them myself. Never found one that I liked the sound of(or what it did to the sound of the amp). I never thought I'd say it, but I actually like the sound of the Tech21 Character pedal better than an attenuated tube amp. It sounds much more open, whereas the attenuated amp sounds choked(which it is).
The best way to control amp volume(something else I never thought I'd say) is by Di'ing the amp into the PA. This effectively makes your amp your on stage monitor. The biggest cause of excessive stage volume levels is not being able to hear yourself. Thus you keep turning up. Running everything through the PA results in a more even FOH mix and stage volume becomes less of an issue.
People just don't seem to enjoy listening to loud music anymore, even though we still enjoy playing it. :tears:

If you're playing an outdoor concert, then I say go all "Jimi!" on them.
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Blindboy
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by Blindboy »

Rather than the digital widgit, the bar owner should have invested in moniters... :roll:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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Blindboy
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by Blindboy »

I have put out feelers to find a smaller amp that I may be able to trade for. Probably sacrifice the Tweed BluesDeville. :sad: If I can find someone who will trade and who has an amp I like. :icon_whoknows:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

I stopped by the bar and checked out the HD500. I was hoping to find a Super Reverb patch and 4x10 cabinet patch. Unfortunately, the HD500 just isn't that specific on it's modeling patches. Best I could do is a 4x10 Bassman. I didn't plug in and play anything. Just wanted to see what the menus looked like and see how user friendly the thing was. It's going to have to sound significantly better than my Tech21 to impress me, and I have a feeling it's going to sound extremely digital.

The Tech21 is an analog pedal and has a very warm amp like tone and feel. If Tech21 did a full blown analog rack version of these pedals with a bank of effects and different cabinet simulation configurations, they would own this segment of the market.

Bb, does your Supro have a speaker jack, or is the speaker hardwired to the chassis? If it has a jack, it can be DI'd to the PA quite easily.
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ratfinkdan
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by ratfinkdan »

Say Blindboy, was thinking of a couple of amps that might work really well for you. I have a fender super champ xd, works really good for low volume type situations, 15 watts the clean chanell is very blackface sounding, channell 2 has different voiceings,I just stay in channel 1 and use my pedal board and it has a few digital efxs, the reverb is very nice sounding, it is a tube amp but sort of a hybred with tube power amp, the stock speaker sounds good but most guys swap the speaker to get a little more volume out of it( I put an eminence legend1058 in mine), it also has a line out that you can run to the pa and its quite reasonably priced, there are huge treads on these on the gear page and the fender player page, nice little amps! Also years ago I had a tech21 tradmark 60, kind of miss it, great amp although its not tubes it sounds as close to tubes as you can get, great amp. The cleans and low gain tones are really nice, 60 watts but sounds great at low volume also, has a built in boost and reverb and a line out with the tech 21 speaker simulation run it to the board and it sounds really good, you can find these used at a pretty resonable price also. Anyway just a couple of options for you, hopefully it helps a little!
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Blindboy
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by Blindboy »

Thanks, Ratfinkdan... I appreciate the info. I have been talking with a local custom amp builder, and he can build me a custom voiced amp for a VERY reasonable price... I just need to sell something. :think:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Another thought, amp wise, might be one of the new Fender Pro Jr. III's. They've added a tone control and an external speaker jack. I've always liked the PJ. but never cared for having just one 10" speaker (though if you are DI'd it becomes more like a personal monitor). The external speaker jack would allow a 1x12 extension cabinet, if you so desired, and then you could DI off the other speaker jack.

Just kicking some ideas around. :think: :icon_whoknows:

I do know, I'd rather go with a small amp DI'd to the board rather than going the HD500 route.
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Hmmmm...

Well, things didn't quite work out for me going direct to the board without an amp. The Blonde sounds great thru my PA in the basement. However, it sounded very tinny/thin/bad through the venue's PA. Not sure why. :think: Maybe it was the way the PA was set up. :icon_whoknows: Luckily I had brought a small amp for Blindboy to use and he still had his Super Reverb on stage, as well.
We DI'd the smaller amp, matched sound levels and it was off to the races. :D First set was at just about the perfect level. We actually had a larger crowd. :thumbsup:
Second set got a bit louder and the crowd started getting thinner. :sad: The owner mentioned that the volume was creeping up. :thumbsdown: I think we are on the right track, though, and with more effort we will have this problem solved.
We did sound better on stage and evidently out in the bar through the PA we had a much better mix. After the first set, several people commented to me that we were sounding much better. :big_smile:
Last edited by DeaconBlues on Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MikeJackal
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by MikeJackal »

If it's too loud...then your too old...crank it up.
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DeaconBlues
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by DeaconBlues »

Oh, I'm definitely too old. :oldie: :big_smile:
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nxsneil
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Re: I'm going ampless.

Post by nxsneil »

Have been following this thread with interest :think:

I have recently been using a Roland VG-99 (VG Guitar System) and also one of the new Roland GR-55 Guitar Synths at our Gigs. These are set up to go straight to FOH Stereo via a Stereo DI box to the Mixing Desk and I tap out a Thru lead from the DI to a Powered Monitor on stage (so I can pretend it is really going thru an Amp :lol: ). Both of these units require your Guitar to be retro fitted with a GK-33 pick up, this allows both the digitally modelled p/u and also your real world Instrument p/u to be utilised and also blended if you want, I've fitted it to my Robert Cray Strat, these Roland units take a fair amount of time to learn & set up but thats how it is in the digital realm (eg try programmming a DVD player? )

But the flexibility of sounds!!!, Guitars, Amps, Speakers, Sax, Trumpet, Horn sections, Keys, Rhodes Piano's etc etc - I think you get the drift :aha:

Latency is just about non-existant and most of the time you wouldn't know and the audience certainly wouldn't, that it wasn't a Gibson LP or Fender Tele or Strat thru a Tube Amp if thats the way you've set it up.

The mix is controlled direct from the mixing desk, so for larger Gigs you need someone who you trust and who knows you and your sound.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth :wave: ........... and if all else fails I've still got my Mesa Boogie Express 5:25 W to fall back on
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