Hot Pickups v Vintage Pickups

[VikingBlues]

I would be fascinated to hear what anyones ears has told them about the tonal differences in "hot" pickups compared to the normal vintage pickups. Ideally in the P90 area but I know not many people use them, so experience with any type of pickup would be of interest to me.

I am trying to wrestle with getting the sound I would like with the PRS (particularly when overdriven) - which has "hot" P90 pickups - something that seems to be in fashion just now with new guitars with P90s. I'm not sure quite why they have to be hot - Townshend with P90s on an SG special certainly didn't need extra output for his high impact playing.

I have seen a comment elsewhere on a forum thread that chimed very well with my current feelings -
"To me, "hot pickups" tend to sound very saturated and thick and while that works great for "in-home" use, they just don't have the sparkle or clarity for playing in a rock/blues/funk/pop/country band. They start to sound very mushy and undefined in the mix. There also comes a point where the input signal becomes stronger than what might be optimum for a particular amp and that causes excessive distortion while changing the whole EQ sound of the amp."
Does this chime with anyone elses feelings? "Saturated and thick" chimes with me - it's as if the guitar has a cold and is a bit phlegmy at soem settings.

In that same thread there was a further comment:-
"a quality vintage design will almost always give up a wider,more detailed EQ curve with more exposed tonal subtleties than most high output designs"

I'm not upset about it - I knew this might be an issue as the pups might be different in sound to what I was looking for (the old fashioned vintage P90s sound) but the P90 solid body guitars are so few and far between you have to take what you can find and work with it, and what I do have with the PRS is a very comfortable, easy action to play, well built, quality wood guitar.

Any thoughts?

[HalfBlindLefty]

With me and First lady it's even worse when compared to Hot pickups.
The pickups on my Tokai produce a even lower output level as vintage pickup.
I wouldn't change them for the world.

Havin' said that I'm not the one to give a advise on pickups I guess

[MikeJackal]

I suppose a good example is the Gibson Burstbuckers vs their Classic 57's. I believe they are pretty much the same except the burstbucker is wound hotter. Better for high gain setups, i have always associated PRS guitars with heavier music (hence the mud), maybe wrongly, but i think these hot P90 guitars are aimed at that market.
I am a purist and don't like change so i will always stick with vintage voiced pickups.

[vancouverois]

"Hot" pickups usually have a high resistance and "vintage" pickups a low one.
This resistance in the signal path going towards the amp is going to have an influence on the tone/sound.
I have a 14 K-Ohms in the bridge of a Strat, ideal for leads with a sustained distortion but clean it is
not a big deal.

Here is a video that compares a high output pickup in neck position VS a stock one.
The Dimarzio FS1 in the neck is around 13 K-Ohms.
u3xHedb96Hw

On my P90 Tele the neck is 7.9 and the bridge 8.9, I guess they are regular output P90 but they sound much better
than the original ones.
Although the originals "Duncan designed" were quite close in resistance, they sounded muffled/thin.
I've been told that the main difference was in the magnets (Weakened Alnico V), the coil wire quality and the overall
quality craftmanship involved.

Another thing is certainly replacing the stock pots and caps that have 20% more or less of tolerance for better
quality ones. Some people report a huge tonal difference after replacing these parts by European or American ones.
At least it gives you a clearer/smoother control on the volume and the tone.

[VikingBlues]

Thanks everyone. It's easy to start to doubt your own senses and ears once you start thinking about these things.

"Hot" pickups usually have a high resistance and "vintage" pickups a low one.
This resistance in the signal path going towards the amp is going to have an influence on the tone/sound.
I have a 14 K-Ohms in the bridge of a Strat, ideal for leads with a sustained distortion but clean it is
not a big deal.

I think you're right - it's the market that's being aimed at that means the "hot" pups are the normal. It's obviously popular - my fault for being in a minority! Distortion and I just don't seem to get on.

Here is a video that compares a high output pickup in neck position VS a stock one.
The Dimarzio FS1 in the neck is around 13 K-Ohms.

That was an interesting video. I agree with the guy - the Fender pup sounds thinner, but to my tired old ears "thinner" means it also rings and chimes in a way that I like.

On my P90 Tele the neck is 7.9 and the bridge 8.9, I guess they are regular output P90 but they sound much better
than the original ones.
Although the originals "Duncan designed" were quite close in resistance, they sounded muffled/thin.
I've been told that the main difference was in the magnets (Weakened Alnico V), the coil wire quality and the overall
quality craftmanship involved.

A good set of quality pups can work wonders. We have a UK maker of pups, Wizard in Wales, that I might just try - small operation they run, but very good reputation - I have used them before once and was very impressed. BTW do you know what sort of Alnicos are in your replacement pups? I find I tend to drift towards the lower numbers in my tastes. I think the Vintage look to be around 7.5 to 8 form what I've seen so far far - then you've got some up at 12 or so for teh "hot" fans.

Another thing is certainly replacing the stock pots and caps that have 20% more or less of tolerance for better
quality ones. Some people report a huge tonal difference after replacing these parts by European or American ones.
At least it gives you a clearer/smoother control on the volume and the tone.

Certainly worth considering though my hatred of soldering gets in the way! A couple of pickups is enough to make me gibber!

I suppose a good example is the Gibson Burstbuckers vs their Classic 57's. I believe they are pretty much the same except the burstbucker is wound hotter. Better for high gain setups, i have always associated PRS guitars with heavier music (hence the mud), maybe wrongly, but i think these hot P90 guitars are aimed at that market.
I am a purist and don't like change so i will always stick with vintage voiced pickups.

There seems to be a huge number of fans of the Burstbuckers but like you, Vintage voiced do sound so much better to my ears. Would that vintage voiced P90s were installed on any guitars in my budget range! Everything seems geared up to be bigger and more extreme - same with CDs - anyone noticed how loud all the sound is on new music -there's much less dynamic range - it's all "in yer face" even what should be the "laid back" sections.

With me and First lady it's even worse when compared to Hot pickups.
The pickups on my Tokai produce a even lower output level as vintage pickup.
I wouldn't change them for the world.

And see the big range you get from low output, and those soaring bends. That's called a good advert for vintage pups if ever there was one.

[vancouverois]

BTW do you know what sort of Alnicos are in your replacement pups? I find I tend to drift towards the lower numbers in my tastes. I think the Vintage look to be around 7.5 to 8 form what I've seen so far far - then you've got some up at 12 or so for teh "hot" fans.

I guess mine are weakened or degaussed Alnico V, I am not sure what term applies exactely.
It is supposed to retain the vintage Alnico II or III voicing but keeps at the same time the attack
of Alnico V. BTW, mine are Lollar pickups, pretty good ones.

Seymour Duncan produces a set of P90 antiquity that have Alnico II magnets. I am not sure about the other
vendors, it mostly is Alnico V for aftermarket P90.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/a ... 1_62_neck/

I like the tone of Alnico II or III pickups, it has something special in the tone. The most famous voiced pickups,
like Gibson PAF or Greco (made by Maxon) Dry Z humbuckers have Alnico II or III magnets.

S. Duncan Antiquity P90 demo, at the end of the clip it is mentioned the antiquity are not wax potted.
KKxDpBAARZc

[VikingBlues]

That's rather a good demo - thanks VC.

Lollar have a good reputation. I quite like the look of their 50s Wind - at 7.1k and 7.4k very old-school, Alnico II2 and they mention Freddie King tone. They've got some good soundfiles on the Lollar site - must give them a listen. Though TBH they are quite a bit more than I was budgeting for - there would be higher delivery costs too I guess.

You're right though - most after market P90s are Alnico V. Though I notice Wizard have a set of Alnico III - one they call "Jazzer" and refer to as mellow and rich.

Anyway thanks very much for your information - most helpful.

BTW - good point in your earlier post about Pots / Caps etc. Had a look inside the control cavity today. Alphas. So if I do go for this might just go the whole hog. But with a classier guitar than my usual ones I've done diy on before ..... I might just get a pro to do it.