My Gibson ES-339

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MojoJim
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by MojoJim »

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the input. Yes, it's been quiet on the board lately.

After I posted my first recording I realized that that was it - that was all I had. It was time to refuel. I'd been around too long to continue to play the wide-eyed newbie with simple questions. It was time to learn to do more. My first posting was based on noodling the A minor pentatonic blues scale with a beginners attempt at the simple techniques of slides, bends, hammer-ons, etc.

So I shut up and went to work on the next level of techniques. I'm working on intros, turnarounds, transitions between chords and playing some lead lines while doing some rhythm patterns. It turns out that that's a lot to step up to. I may have to limit the scope if I hope to succeed in this next phase. I'm using the instructional material on this site for Malted Milk as a learning tool. (Thanks, Gerd)

Does peadee still read this forum? He was several months ahead of me in his learning and his first post was a version of Malted Milk. I had hoped to follow in his footsteps but he seems to have dropped off.

Malted Milk really requires vocals - but I can't sing - but I can work on the guitar part.

BadBluesPlayer, I think your singing is terrific on "There Must Be a Better World Somewhere". I think you are one of the better singers on the forum.

Strummer, I'm just realizing how different the Gibson and Fender worlds are. I think I just woke up in a very critical mood this morning. Months ago I had read several forum entries like the following:

The other negative comment about the neck is the irregular leveling of the white plastic binding that borders the frets and fret board. It looks unfinished or in some places like a student project. It is really BELOW the quality I have ever seen on a Gibson neck. I may have a luthier work on it once the guitar is back in order. This is disappointing. I would never have thought a guitar would come from the Custom Shop with this kind of workmanship. There was another poster somewhere on this forum who said in fact that the ES-339 was NOT made in the Custom Shop after all. Even if this were the case I am surprised that this neck could pass QC.

Now, I've had the guitar for a couple of months and it's always looked perfect to me. Once I started looking at the fret ends then I started turning the guitar this way and that and getting the light just right. Aha! There they are! File marks on the binding between fretwires! Actually they are almost invisible and are only cosmetic. I don't care about them at all.

Your point about the frets offering an extended surface for string bends is excellent. I hadn't considered that - it's a very good point.

VikingBlues - thanks for the tip about pencil graphite. I'll try that when I retring tomorrow. I've also bought some "Nut Sauce" to try. I'm not going to try to file the nut. I'll leave that to the pros - if it comes to that.

When I played my Strat today the 09's on it did feel a bit wimpy. I'm going to restring the 339 tomorrow with new 10's. I bought some DR Pure Blues pure nickle, round core strings. I read they were good so I bought some. I don't know anything about strings really - but I'm going to learn. I think the professional jazz guitarist that I bought the guitar from had some "fat bottom" 10's on it. My vernier calipers say the low E string is 0.52 (I think). I'm going to put on the DR 10-46 strings to see if they feel better.

I'm still learning how to get wonderful tones out of the 339. I keep getting surprised at how good it sounds. Thanks again for the input.
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BadBluesPlayer
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by BadBluesPlayer »

One thing that bugged me about my 339 - I guess Gibson uses beveled pickup rings for all their guitars. It seems like all the 339's really should have a flat pickup ring around the neck pickup. The neck pickups on all 339's seem to be tilted.

I took a bridge pickup and ground it down so it was flat and replaced the original neck pickup ring. Now it sits flat:
Image
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Strummer07
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Strummer07 »

Mine is definately tilted !!

and I think its gonna have to stay like that ......I don't fancy 'grinding it'

You are a brave man BBP ( good Pic too )
"Death is just a heartbeat away"
lyric from "Out in The Fields"
Gary Moore 1952-2011
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weelie
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by weelie »

Please do keep on putting down your 2nd rate Gibsons, I'll feel better about my Epi copy! :D

I bought the Epi wanting a versatile light weight Gibson for cheap. Well, mine (at 3,8kg) is heavier than ES-339s but still a tad neck heavy (compare to my 3,1kg "Fenders").
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VikingBlues
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by VikingBlues »

BadBluesPlayer wrote:The neck pickups on all 339's seem to be tilted.
The neck pickup on my Hagstrom Viking Deluxe is tilted too (not that it's close to being in the same league as the 339!). The neck angle to the body is more than the angle of the body surface bt the neck join - the pickup is pretty level with the body so the part of the pickup nearest the neck is a lot closer to the strings than the edge furthest away. About 3mm and 4.5mm. The neck humbucker on my Tokai is almost perfectly aligned with the strings.
Strummer07 wrote:Mine is definately tilted !!
and I think its gonna have to stay like that ......I don't fancy 'grinding it'
You are a brave man BBP
I think I'm with Strummer on this!
MojoJim wrote:I think the professional jazz guitarist that I bought the guitar from had some "fat bottom" 10's on it. My vernier calipers say the low E string is 0.52 (I think). I'm going to put on the DR 10-46 strings to see if they feel better.
I've used a set of "hybrid 10 to 52s on my Hagstrom. The tone was nice, particularly noticeable unplugged, but I was much more happy with the playing feel on the lower and middle strings when I went back to standard 10s. I've seen good things about DR Blues and the nickel should give a good tone with a semi.

There's so many things affect the feel of the way a guitar plays. What you say about the binding catching your finger and you have to amend the arch of your fingers puts me in mind of one of the reasons why (I think) I find the Hagstrom more difficult to play than the Tokai. It ought to be OK as the Hagstrom is lighter, the neck is thinner - the distance round the curve of the back of the neck from one side of the freboard to the other is about 5mm less than the Tokai and the fretboard is about 1mm narrower. But ... (1) the frets are taller and thicker and I find this gets in the way of my sliding notes - I use a very light touch I think which makes this worse, and (2) although the neck is thinner the shape of it means it doesn't fit the shape of my hand so well when I bend strings - as a result bends on the Hagstrom are a lot less secure than the Tokai. But maybe if I could get the playing action and neck relief as low on the Hagstrom as the Tokai there wouldn't be such a difference. It's all very confusing. :wall: :think:

Good luck with the new strings and I'm sure the nut sauce &/or the graphite shavings will help the tuning. It takes a while to get used to the balance and playabilty of such a different guitar, but as you like the tone that'll give a nice incentive for making it work for you. :thumbsup:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
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12bar
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by 12bar »

Jim,

learning to play and learning something about the technical side of a guitar, which strings, which pickup, what works well etc. is an ongoing process and that's what makes guitar playing such fun, at least for me. I often feel helpless listening to EC's perfect mixture of tone and note. I know I can not even close to this, but I keep trying and learning. Sounds you're in the same boat (well, most of us are). I find it interesting to hear how others improve their playing or gear.

A bit OT: I'm starting to to renovate our combined living room / home office (we have to change some rooms with our 4th child growing), so I'm without guitar for some days and even offline for a while.

BUT - I'm thinking of recording an album with all the fantastic people here, the 12bar Allstars. Doing some artwork, a good mixture and releasing it on a free music site. Solo songs, collabs - everything, about 6 to 10 songs. All with public domain songs and backing tracks. And all levels, from beginners to expert. I'll open a new thread about this as soon as I've finished pulling down walls, cutting holes, building it up again and painting it all...
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MojoJim
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by MojoJim »

12bar - thanks for the encouragement. I look back at the questions I was posting a year ago and realize how far I've come in my knowledge of music, gear,...... everything. This forum has been a terrific place to learn. Hope to keep the process going for many years to come.

Good luck with your renovation. We made a lot of changes to our house a few years ago. I was really, really happy when the last contractor finally left. But it sounds like you may be doing a lot of the work yourself.

The album idea sounds great. You should be able to put together a classic with the talent available here.

BBP - the neck pickup on my 339 is also tilted. From what I read on the forums they all seem to be that way. I haven't seen where Gibson has said if that is part of the design or not. It looks like you did an excellent job of fixing yours. Bravo! for having such great skills. But I join with Strummer and VB on this. I have neither the skill nor the inclination to start doing surgery on my guitar. Although learning some of the skills of a guitar tech has a certain appeal. Maybe that's next. Right now I feel fear when change the strings. At any moment I expect to hear a loud "SPROING" and for parts to go flying all over the room. When I finally get the new strings on the tuning posts look like rat's nests of wire. I watch the YouTube videos on changing strings but I still don't have it down.

I put on the DR Pure Blues nickle strings today and that made the tone even better than before. It added a new liveliness and presence to the sound. I don't have enough experience to compare strings yet but I'll try a few different kinds over the months ahead to learn the differences. Lubricating the nut and saddles seems to have taken care of the tuning problems. Doing a bit of hands-on work with the guitar gives a new sense of pride of ownership and feeling of familiarity. It reinforces the idea of learning some guitar tech skills.

I may have an explanation for the less-than-stellar finish work on the fret bindings. Gibson had quality problems when they first introduced this guitar in 2007. But they were supposed to be cured by the time my 2009 model was built. Tonight I decoded the serial number to find the year of manufacture and it looks like I've actually got a 2007 model. I think the Ebay seller fooled me. I'm usually more careful about checking things out. Oh well, the finish work is very minor and it is still a gorgeous guitar. I'm still happy.

Here's a question. Can you check intonation using a commercial electronic tuner? Can you tune the E string using the tuner and then fret the string at the 12th fret and check the tuning again to see if the intonation is correct? Or do you need some other instrument? And how many cents of mistuning (between open and 12th fret) should be accepted before working on the intonation? I'm sure for a real musician the answer is "If it sounds bad then fix it" - but I don't have that good an ear yet. I need to depend on electronics. Or maybe I should just leave intonation up the the pros. What do you think?
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Golfxzq
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Golfxzq »

MojoJim wrote:Here's a question. Can you check intonation using a commercial electronic tuner? Can you tune the E string using the tuner and then fret the string at the 12th fret and check the tuning again to see if the intonation is correct? Or do you need some other instrument? And how many cents of mistuning (between open and 12th fret) should be accepted before working on the intonation? I'm sure for a real musician the answer is "If it sounds bad then fix it" - but I don't have that good an ear yet. I need to depend on electronics. Or maybe I should just leave intonation up the the pros. What do you think?
Strange that you should mention this... just as I was reading through your post I was thinking about a similar situation with Co-Co (Ibanez AF-95). On my first guitar, a Carlo Robelli, and on Co-Co, I have set my intonation using an electronic tuner, just as you suggested. On my Carlo Robelli the bridge is fixed and I just adjusted the little screws on the bridge to lengthen or shorten each string to get the same pitch open and on the twelfth fret. When I got Co-Co one of the first things I checked was the intonation, using this same process... very little adjustment was needed from the factory set up. Later, when I first changed the strings I noticed that the bridge was not fixed. I removed and replaced one string at a time, as is my method, but the bridge is not fixed... it just sits atop the body. As would be expected the bridge moved a bit and when I checked the intonation using my electronic tuner it was quite a bit off. Since I knew the intonation adjustment screws had not been changed I just nudged the entire bridge around on each end a bit until the low E and the high E had proper intonation (using the tuner) and all the other strings fell into place with no adjustment necessary. Good question about intonation... I would like to learn more about this from those who have the experience. I would also like to know if we are doing this correctly using a tuner. Also, why on earth is my bridge floating??? Is that a good thing, a bad thing or does it make any difference at all ??? :icon_whoknows:
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
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Blindboy
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Blindboy »

Golfxzq wrote: Good question about intonation... I would like to learn more about this from those who have the experience. I would also like to know if we are doing this correctly using a tuner. Also, why on earth is my bridge floating??? Is that a good thing, a bad thing or does it make any difference at all ??? :icon_whoknows:
That is a perfectly fine way to adjust intonation. I actually just hit the 12th fret harmonic, then the 12th fret and adjust it until they are the same (by ear).
As for the bridge on CoCo; on an archtop (as opposed to a semi-hollowbody), the bridge is almost never fixed to the top. This may be a holdover from when they were acoustic and transfering the vibrations of the string to the top was paramount. This style of bridge is sometimes called a "violin" type. On a semi, the bridge is attatched with posts set into the internal block, which is usually fastened to the neck, making the neck, bridge, pickups, and tailpiece (if so equipped) one unit. This is considered desireable in an electric. On full hollowbodies like your (and my) Ibanez, or my Casino, there may be a loss of sustain, but there is a big difference in tone and a kind of resonance. Neither one is better, just different. As an aside, on a full hollowbody, feedback at stage volume is much more of a consideration. Controll it, or it will mess you up. (my Casino feeds back in the key of A :nuts: )
On the subject of strings, everyone settles on what suits them. I use GHS Boomers in an 11 gauge on all of my pickup equipped guitars. Been using them for years and never had a complaint. Years ago I was in a band who all tuned down a half step, so I tried some '13s for a while, but, SRV notwithstanding, that was a bit too extreme. I switched to '11s, and tuned down a half step, they were surprisingly easy to bend, got great tone, and very rarely broke. Tuned to standard, they aren't too bad on the fingers, sound pretty good, and still rarely break. I think heavier strings yield better tone, but you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns as far as playability. On acoustics, I use mostly mediums, especially on the resophonics.
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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Blindboy
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Blindboy »

12bar wrote:Jim,

learning to play and learning something about the technical side of a guitar, which strings, which pickup, what works well etc. is an ongoing process and that's what makes guitar playing such fun, at least for me. I often feel helpless listening to EC's perfect mixture of tone and note. I know I can not even close to this, but I keep trying and learning. Sounds you're in the same boat (well, most of us are). I find it interesting to hear how others improve their playing or gear.

A bit OT: I'm starting to to renovate our combined living room / home office (we have to change some rooms with our 4th child growing), so I'm without guitar for some days and even offline for a while.

BUT - I'm thinking of recording an album with all the fantastic people here, the 12bar Allstars. Doing some artwork, a good mixture and releasing it on a free music site. Solo songs, collabs - everything, about 6 to 10 songs. All with public domain songs and backing tracks. And all levels, from beginners to expert. I'll open a new thread about this as soon as I've finished pulling down walls, cutting holes, building it up again and painting it all...
Gerd, good luck with your remodel... I did remodels and new construction for twenty years before I wimped out and went to work just telling folks what they needed to do thier projects. :roll:
As for the album, I am very interested. I would like to participate, and I would definatly like a copy. Looking forward to hearing more. :big_smile:
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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VikingBlues
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by VikingBlues »

MojoJim wrote:I put on the DR Pure Blues nickle strings today and that made the tone even better than before. It added a new liveliness and presence to the sound. I don't have enough experience to compare strings yet but I'll try a few different kinds over the months ahead to learn the differences. Lubricating the nut and saddles seems to have taken care of the tuning problems. Doing a bit of hands-on work with the guitar gives a new sense of pride of ownership and feeling of familiarity. It reinforces the idea of learning some guitar tech skills.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Glad to hear the strings and lubrications helped. You're right about the hands-on work - it can pay great dividends and I reckon only the player can know what's right for him, so if you can learn enough about set ups you get a guitar that suits your own abilities and playing style. There's plenty of advice on the net but I found a few years back that investing in the book "How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great!" by Dan Erlewine was very worthwhile.
MojoJim wrote:I may have an explanation for the less-than-stellar finish work on the fret bindings. Gibson had quality problems when they first introduced this guitar in 2007. But they were supposed to be cured by the time my 2009 model was built. Tonight I decoded the serial number to find the year of manufacture and it looks like I've actually got a 2007 model. I think the Ebay seller fooled me. I'm usually more careful about checking things out. Oh well, the finish work is very minor and it is still a gorgeous guitar. I'm still happy.
The important thing is the sound and the general build quality - I'm glad the minor blemishes haven't put you off. :D The date of the guitar puts me in mind of a second hand Tokai I looked at in an Edinburgh guitar shop before I got the LC85 elsewhere. After they rung the shop ownerthey told me that the guitar was from the 1980s - they "tried" checking the date on the PC in the shop but had no success. I noted the serial number and checked at home later that day - it was early 2000s which fitted much better with the guitars' appearance. Didn't make the price quite as attractive anymore! I still can't make my mind up whether I was being conned or it was a genuine mistake - it was very easy to check the date on-line though! :think:
MojoJim wrote:Here's a question. Can you check intonation using a commercial electronic tuner? Can you tune the E string using the tuner and then fret the string at the 12th fret and check the tuning again to see if the intonation is correct? Or do you need some other instrument? And how many cents of mistuning (between open and 12th fret) should be accepted before working on the intonation? I'm sure for a real musician the answer is "If it sounds bad then fix it" - but I don't have that good an ear yet. I need to depend on electronics. Or maybe I should just leave intonation up the the pros. What do you think?
You should be able to do the intonation yourself using the electronic tuner at the open strings and 12th frets - works fine for me. As for how much mistuning you can accept really depends on what your ears tell you and how much you wince if you play say an E chord with the 3rd 4th and 5th strings fretted an octave higher but the other strings open. Similar with an A chord. If your string gauge has changed a bit of intonation adjustment is likely to be needed. Note you can still have some intonation problems at the lower frets even when you've done the open string and 12th fret tuning excercise if the nut slots haven't been cut low enough but this is usually a cheap guitar thing so you should be OK. When you get the intonation right it makes a huge difference to the enjoyment of playing. :clap:

You do realise though that this road can lead to continual tinkering and the quest for that perfect sound and tone, like 12bar says, fun though and it's good to lift the veils of "mystique" from these processes. I'm continually tweaking at my Hagstrom to get the same level of playability as my Tokai but I suspect I'll never getthere due the inherent limitations of basic build quality. :wall: :D
12bar wrote:A bit OT: I'm starting to to renovate our combined living room / home office (we have to change some rooms with our 4th child growing), so I'm without guitar for some days and even offline for a while.

BUT - I'm thinking of recording an album with all the fantastic people here, the 12bar Allstars. Doing some artwork, a good mixture and releasing it on a free music site. Solo songs, collabs - everything, about 6 to 10 songs. All with public domain songs and backing tracks. And all levels, from beginners to expert. I'll open a new thread about this as soon as I've finished pulling down walls, cutting holes, building it up again and painting it all...
Good luck with the renovation and the album idea sounds amazing - I share Blindboys enthusiasm about that. :thumbsup:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
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Pena
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Pena »

12bar wrote:Jim,

BUT - I'm thinking of recording an album with all the fantastic people here, the 12bar Allstars. Doing some artwork, a good mixture and releasing it on a free music site. Solo songs, collabs - everything, about 6 to 10 songs. All with public domain songs and backing tracks. And all levels, from beginners to expert. I'll open a new thread about this as soon as I've finished pulling down walls, cutting holes, building it up again and painting it all...
Now that sounds INTERESTING, waiting it really impatienty :chicken:
WOW :drool:
"The blues is a low down achein' chill" Robert Johnson
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HalfBlindLefty
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by HalfBlindLefty »

Pena wrote:
12bar wrote:Jim,

BUT - I'm thinking of recording an album with all the fantastic people here, the 12bar Allstars. Doing some artwork, a good mixture and releasing it on a free music site. Solo songs, collabs - everything, about 6 to 10 songs. All with public domain songs and backing tracks. And all levels, from beginners to expert. I'll open a new thread about this as soon as I've finished pulling down walls, cutting holes, building it up again and painting it all...
Now that sounds INTERESTING, waiting it really impatienty :chicken:
WOW :drool:

+ kudos :clap:
A long time ago, in the old forum : Registered: Mon, 27 Nov 2006. Wonder were the other old members all went....
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Strummer07
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by Strummer07 »

12 Bar ..and the very best of luck to you on your decorating/remodeling process

I did up and renovated my daughters new ( to her) apartment before Christmas and whilst it was a labour of love in a way ( and also getting my daughter moved out and starting a life on her own and all that !! :thumbsup: ) it was also hard work. Not that hard work ever killed anyone ..............but it was two and a half months of a hard slog and the guitar never got a look in.

I know that I need to completely redecorate the spare bedroom in our home, ( daughter now happily esconced in fab new apartment)..But I am still waiting for my knees to recover from the last bash ! even wearing knee pads almost all the time , my knees are a tad banjaxed !!


Anyway .......its a good excuse not to start the bedroom................ .play some geetar and watch football on the television , its our English cup Final today
Chelsea versus Portsmouth ..........Sun is shining, Good Footie and a noodle on the ES339 ( just to bring it back on thread !! :D ) .great !!

Perhaps a beer later !! ( well there's no perhaps about !! )

and weelie, casting aspertions about Gibsons !!!!! :naughty: .................My ES339 is #1 .....both in looks, quality and tone .........I don't begrudge on single penny that I spent on her. I know Epis are good guitars as well ....but an Epi ........is an Epi.

A Gibson, built in the Custom shop !! ....well it warms the cockles of my heart just looking at it !!

I've just put Ernie Ball "Heavy bottom Slinky's" on mine
10/13/17 ......standard 10 guage strings on the top end

30/42/52 on the bottoms .which I think are more common on a set of 12.s

just a bit more tone on the bottom end ...............and you can't beat a bit of extra tone on your bottom can you :big_smile:

I might try a set of 11's , but I'll have to get the acoustic out to toughen up ye olde finger pads again.

Now for some footie !!
"Death is just a heartbeat away"
lyric from "Out in The Fields"
Gary Moore 1952-2011
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MojoJim
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Re: My Gibson ES-339

Post by MojoJim »

VB - great tip on using chords to find strings with intonation problems. The tuner told me my G string needed work and as soon as I struck an E chord at the high octave the bad G string popped right out. I was amazed. I keep waiting to encounter the deadly challenge that tells me I'll never be a musician. But so far, with tips from the forum, I've been able to learn to handle each new thing.

Yes, I understand about tinkering. While I was changing strings yesterday and thinking about learning to do other things I was also eyeing the small table I was using and visualizing how it could be converted to a guitar tech workbench. Guitar supports, jigs, stops, clamps, tool holders, etc. - yes, I think it's all doable.

BlindBoy - what a cool technique of using the harmonic! I worked on it for a while and, if I already know the answer about intonation of a string, I think I can hear the difference using your technique. More ear training is probably in order. It's too bad that intonation is usually adjusted out of the spotlight. It would be so cool to use your technique in front of a group.

"Hey man, what 'cha doin'?"

"I'm just comparing the pitch of this string fretted at the 12th fret to the 12th fret harmonic of the same string to check the intonation. Hear that difference? Have you got a small screwdriver on you?"

"Whoa - dude! That's kind of magic."
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