Advice from Strat players?

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VikingBlues
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Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

I knew this would happen - the guitar building "bug" is starting to gibber quietly at the back of my brain. I suspect I will end up doing yet another project guitar before long. If so it'll be a long slow job though - buy a bit and pay for it before getting the next bit. :sad:

I would be VERY grateful for any advice anyone can give me. Including "DONT DO IT VIKING"! :yikes:

:think: With this in mind I was thinking - I have a Les Paul style, a semi-acoustic, a Tele style. An obvious missing item is a Strat style - it has the advantage of there being more parts available and more second hand bits being sold for strats than anything else. It has the disadvantage that I've had strat style guitars in the past but haven't got on too well with them - but that's possibly my lower playing abilities back then and maybe some bad choices in the guitars themselves. I feel a bit more confident about the idea with my getting on well with the Tele copy.

I'd be looking to pick up second hand bits and pieces and try to cobble them together into a half decent guitar.

So on to the advice front. (I will be on a tight budget on this though, so Bareknucle pickups and gear of that type of price bracket are off limits).

1) I'm tempted more by S-S-S than H-S-S. The strat style guitars I've tried in the past that had a bridge humbucker I've found difficult to balance the tones and the sounds from the two types of pickups. Also I already have two guitars with humbuckers. Any positives about the H-S-S I should consider, or a make of pickup where the balance is good with a humbucker?

2) I have seen a few demos on line of P90 strats which have sounded good - I guess that this may be a criminal act though to put P90s on a strat and ruin the strat sound. It's just I do like the sound of P90s and I do already have single coil sounds from my Tele copy.

3) I'm sort of assuming that there is a some gain in wood quality on a body thats ex Fender Strat USA rather than a Squier. But is the wood type less of of a faactor in the relative qualities than the pickups, electronics and general hardware?

4) Anyone had any direct experience of IronGear pickups (maybe unlikely as they are a UK outfit) - I see lots of good things about their Strat pickups and they are remarkably low on price for such praised pickups. I'm tempted to use Wizard pickups (in Wales) as I've had their pickups before and was very impressed, but they are double the IronGear price. Then staying (sort of) British there's Wilkinsons too at the budget end of the market - his pickups in my Tele copy sound pretty good.

:icon_whoknows:

Any recommendations would be nuch appreciated.
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oneeyedslide
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by oneeyedslide »

DO IT VIKING! My experiences with strat style solid bodies were a lot more enjoyable than frustrating, so here's my two cents worth.

One plus is definitely the availability and interchangeability of components. If something doesn't work out right a cheap alternative is usually available.

I have a Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates humbucker in the bridge spot on my present squier and I put a push-pull tone pot on it to split the coils. It still doesn't sound like a fender single coil. Maybe it sounds a little like a p-90, but not quite. I usually use the neck pickup anyway, except maybe with my epi valve jr amp which is somewhat dark and muddy. I know what you mean about a humbucker being difficult to balance with the fender single coils. Putting it on a tone control might help a bit. SSS just looks right, like a strat should look. The Texas Special single coils really cut through so they seem to work good with a HB in the bridge position.

P90s? Nothing sounds like a p90! But you're right, it probably won't cluck and quack like a strat. How about P90-S-S? That would be a cool setup! P90s are longer than humbuckers or fender single coils though. You'd have to do some routing of the pickup cavitie(s). Then the cavity will be too big to go back to a strat-style pickup if you want. You can find affordable P90s that are humbucker-shaped which make this swap alot easier. Criminal act? Kinda like a chevy motor in a ford I guess. Can't make everybody happy!

Routing pickup cavities brings up a good point about wood quality. A USA Fender body may sound better but I don't know if I could make myself take a power tool to it. Glue-up squier bodies are hit-and-miss sound wise, but a hammer and chisel gets it done if you need to remove wood (with a little care).

Got no experience with the pickups you mention though. Hope you go ahead with this project Viking. Sounds like fun!
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weelie
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by weelie »

Go for it. Plenty of parts and kits available. Stewmac.com, rockinger.com, allparts, guitarfetish, etc. One choice would be to take a cheapo, like Squier bullet strat and mod the heck out of it. Of course it has thinner body and all that, but the pickups and setup are the most important things, so with some mods on electronics, you set to go.

I'd stay with regular bridge. Depending on pickups and things, you could add a mid-boost, etc.

I think it's best to have no-load master tone and then the other one is either a neck pickup blender (or even a blender with a switch on it (so you can add in series options). Makes the bridge pickup more useful if you have a tone control for it and you add add some neck pickup to it if you so feel.

Yeah, P90s, yummy. Though I still sort of think that the original three singles is where it's at. Although I do like the look Ry Cooder's 67: http://www.rycooder.nl/images/strat_67.jpg
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Blackhorse
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by Blackhorse »

Just a couple of suggestions - take a look at some SX strats as a base to build on. The body tends to be reasonable, similar to a Squier, the necks tend to be very good, the pickups are not too bad but the rest of the hardware is awful. The price, however, is right - they are very cheap. A basic SX strat, with a new bridge/tremolo and tuning heads, and new pickups, should be very playable.

For pickups a good cheap option would be to look second-hand for any stock Fender pickups from a Mexican strat. Lots of people seem to buy Mex's and swap out the pickups, when the pickups are fine. And I would definitely stick with the S-S-S configuration - anything else just isn't a strat :eye_rub:
spoonful
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by spoonful »

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Blindboy
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by Blindboy »

Go for it! My Frankenstrat is a home build, and I have been loving it for over twenty years now. I recommend a s-s-s pickup configuration, as that is the quintessential strat sound (the sound being the main reason to have a strat, imho). As Weelie said, Stewart Macdonald is a great resource. For pickups, check out Carvin guitars, they have prewired strat style pickguards with pretty good sounding pickups for US$109. They also have very nice necks. I am kicking around the idea of saving up for one of thier Bolt kit guitars. (I could use another strat style guitar :whistle: )
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oneeyedslide
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by oneeyedslide »

WOW! Fender-sized P90S! I feel a project coming on! A P90-S-S strat that still quacks! If Viking doesn't make one of these I will!! Thanks Spoonfull!
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Strummer07
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by Strummer07 »

Hi VB
Sounds like an interesting project !!

As you are going to do it over time , rather than all in one go I think I'd be recommending to go with best available bits as and when you can source them on the net and or ebay.

Bearing in mind that quality and tone run very much through all your music , both hardware and outputs.. and your signature states ... "trying to find that tone" .. going for cheap and cheerful components ultimately isn't going to cut it really .......that means ........

a) you need a decent body , tighter the grain ...the better its ability to resonate.

b) Finger Board .well its has got to be decent hasn't it ??? otherwise it won't feel right

c) It strikes me cheap electrics are almost not worth putting in...if you want great outputs through that Vox AC4 of yours. You have to to have a half decent wiring loom attached to some decent pup's

I thought Blackhorses suggestion of keeping an eye on e-bay for a set of Maxican pup's was a goodun ... I sold my whole finger board as ""Loaded" .. that was all the wiring , The Scratch plate itself including the original set of American Standard pup's ( a good quality set too ) on e-bay for £67.00 !! .....gotta be a bargain way to get great pup's and no soldering either !! ..with a 5 way selector and all that gumph ... its a lot of soldering !! .I wouldn't fancy it !!

Personally I think the two key components , if tone is your thing !! is the bridge assembly and the pup's ....so compromise elsewhere..... if you have to !!

Or just increase the budget / do overtime / rob yer granny / pawn something !! ....there are somethings in life you don't compromise on ....women and guitars are two of 'em !!

Good luck .........and keep us appraised as you go ... photo diary would be grand !!

and robbing yer granny is meant as a joke !! :D
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

Wow - what a huge bunch of replies - thanks guys :thumbsup: - I don't have time to read through them at the moment, just a quick 60 seconds at work here, but I'll read / reply tonight.

Another query though - anyone know about the quality of pickups, potentiometers, switch and jack socket from a 2000 Fender Japan Paisley Strat - there's a possibility of those bundled with a no name body but if the Fender Japan gear is good, might be worth a punt if the price is OK even if the body doesn't get used. :icon_whoknows:
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weelie
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by weelie »

commonly the later (90s onwards) japanese fenders have had cheap switches and pots. So like Squier, not like Mexican/US Fender. Also basswood bodies, on the lesser models, which is like Squier too. Pickups have been either US made, or then japanese cheapos (on my 1995 MIJ 50s strat pickups were very low output alnicos, plenty of "notch position" twang a la Mark Knopfler, if that's your thing).
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vancouverois
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by vancouverois »

Well, go for it!
Last year I've built a Strat and it's really rewarding.
It is a SSS setup with Fender '69 custom shop pickups.
Body, neck and bridge were found on Ebay.
It was cheaper to build from parts instead of buying a brand new Strat large peghead reissue.
Lets say something like 500 €.

If you're looking for a hot bridge pickup that likes a lot of distortion, have a look at the seymour
duncan SSL-5. Better than the regular Strat bridge pickup and very Gilmourish at high gain
settings. A pretty versatile pickup that keeps clarity despite its 13 K ohms.

Japanese Strat are quite good, the export models usually have US pickups (often Texas Special).
Export models have (or had) alder bodies and US electronics.
There is a good website about MIJ Strats, http://www.21frets.com/
Quality seems to have changed over the years, so the Japanese specs may be different from a year
to another.
I guess the woods are important, maple and alder is a good combination, certainly better than
basswood or agathis found on cheaper models.
Jan 15th 2007
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

Soooo ... deep breath. I've never had to try to respond to as many posts as this at once, but here goes. :D

Several "go for it" and "do it" comments make it pretty clear the concept is a good one - thank you all for the encouragement, and the time you've taken to help with your advice. I've had a crap day at work, and having had a pedal delivered in the post that's d.o.a., so you've brought some cheer to me tonight. :thumbsup:

Another common statement in your posts is that S-S-S is best option. I think I'm probably coming down in favour of that idea. I do like the P90 and, and wish i had some - I recently heard a sound comparison of typical humbucker, single coil, and P90 sounds and on nearly every comparison I found myself preferring the P90 sond clip. I think though I would maybe be better off with leaving P90s for another day and maybe on a more conventionally P90'd guitar. So it could well be up to you oneeyedslide to follow up on the spoonful suggestion here.

A number of you have made good points about the body / neck materials too. I will definately be inclined towards the likes of ash and alder rather than basswood etc

I'm maybe going to try if possible to concentrate on second hand gear - I see a lot of good sites mentioned by weelie but I'm pretty sure at least the most of them are US based which leaves long transport time, high delivery charges and problems with returns. About the only UK based site I've found in my previous ventures in guitar building that does this sort of thing well is Axes R Us. Very reliable, knowledgable, and friendly. But with the items being new there is a price tag attached. :sad:

Blindboy and Strummer both mention pre-wired assemblies and I do feel tempted by that route - I can do soldering, but it does jangle my nerves more than a bit. :yikes: But it's not always easy to find pre wired at a good value price. Axesrus do a number of these including Wilkinson, who do the pickups on my Vintage Tele copy. A good point about the importance of the bridge Strummer - again Wilkinson might be the answer for me, and it's probably the one component he's most famous at for producing good quality and value for money. :icon_whoknows:

Thanks for the advice on pickups oneeyedslide, Blackhorse, weelie, Blindboy, vancouveris and Strummer - I'm thinking secondhand just down to price, with the only alternative being a no-name outfit who are at the stage of producing quality gear at a very competitive price while they try to become higher profile and well known. I'm probably going to go quite conservative on the pups - more vintage than hot - I'm not good at playing with really much (if any) distortion.

This is going to be long term as a project, just a bit at a time as I can afford it - I quite agree with your points on increasing the budget to get as good as I can Strummer, but I'm afraid reality kicks in - we have a lot of house repairs this year - windows, walls, roof etc, and when you're daft enough to have moved into a listed building that ain't cheap. I'm on a fixed salary so that's the overtime kicked out .... I suppose there is always the chance of the lottery numbers coming up. :rofl: Also I think that if I want a real quality guitar it'll be a case of buying one made by a quality guitar maker at some point - I can try to compete with the budget levels of guitar with my workmanship, but it sort of ends there. I take some comfort in the fact that I find a great quality of tone for price in my Vintage Tele copy - now if I could get that sort of tone within that sort of budget I'd be over the moon.

Thanks for the link re Japan Fender vancouveris - it is apparent from your post and weelies that there is some confusion about what quality / type of components might be used and when. I did find similar problems when researching Tokai last year. :alright:

And finally - I like Strummers idea of the photo diary - who knows, if I can get another member of the family to take some of the pictures there might be some of me hitting my head on the wall at crucial moments. :wall:

Thanks again everyone - sorry I couldn't reply individually to each of your posts. :beer:
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weelie
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by weelie »

vancouverois wrote: Japanese Strat are quite good, the export models usually have US pickups (often Texas Special).
Export models have (or had) alder bodies and US electronics.
There is a good website about MIJ Strats, http://www.21frets.com/
I guess the woods are important, maple and alder is a good combination, certainly better than
basswood or agathis found on cheaper models.
Some high end models have "US vintage" or "texas special" pickups. These also have accurate body woods and such. But I think the switch, wiring and pots are still low grade. Of course the neck shapes are sublime. I think Allparts necks are the same Fender Japan necks (at least they are made in Japan).

Basically you have three lines of Japanese Fenders. The bottom line, the middle line and the top line. Of course there the signature and custom end above that. The top line has the accurate woods and pickups, the lower end have the basswood and Japanese pickups. The middle line still has basswood bodies, but has the US pickups.

I think this is one of the best for current Japanese Fenders: http://fenderjapan.co.jp/fender/2008fen ... caster.htm

The model names have the type of vintage (like 1957 = 57). The TX will note texas special, US US vintage etc.

The body wood of course is just one factor. I bet there are a lot of very good starts without alder or ash bodies. Basswood just dings very easily, and doesn't look nice. I assume pawlonia (which is very light, and available on gfs site) or pine might suffer from that too.

P90s on a Gibson ES-330 sound just sublime. But I somehow doubt they'd be *as* nice on a strat. :( Actually I'd be more willing to try two minihumbuckers instead. NOt that I'd ever have tried a P90 strat. Nor do I mind the look: http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/squier- ... uitar.html If you do go that route, I'd certainly love to know how it sounds! I sometimes think my strat sounds terribly wimpy, and I add some mids from a pedal... but sometimes I just realize, well it's a strat, it'll sounds like a strat, and play my Epiphone instead. :D

Yeah, plenty of good providers in UK, I bet. Wilkinson arts are cheap and good.
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

hanks weelie.

You're all giving me plenty to think about - it's great to get good and informed opinion like this.

Having researched more I'm less against the idea of basswood - I believe it is not a million miles from Alder - the main difference being more mids and a bit less high end treble. As I like the strat sound generally, but do find the shrillness that can occur on the higher notes a bit wearing, maybe basswood has possibilities. The easily dinged is not to be honest a major issue - I don't mind the odd ding on a guitar, although I don't want to pay a premium for one that's been artificially dinged - sorry - a "relic" job.

Thanks for the further Japan info too.

There are one or two videos on YouTube where P90s sound good on a strat, but I think it makes sense to stick with going for a strat sound now, and a P90 in the future. Otherwise I could see having built a P90 start I'd want an ordinary strat and then a more typical P90 guitar too.

Goota go - thanks again folks. :away:
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

Uh-oh, it's him again. Run for the hills. :away:

I remember in the past when looking at maybe buying a strat type of guitar I felt swamped by the number of permutations. I now find in looking for ideas for a best way to self build there are also more options than I expected. :wall:

This is quite confusing so I'd like to ask another question or two as you've all been very helpful.

Having been looking at the pickups / wiring front - and similar in some ways to the push-pull tone pot on the bridge pup idea mentioned by oneeyedslide - does anyone have any experience / knowledge / views of the alternative wiring system where there is a master tone pot which means the bridge pup tone can be adjusted and the other tone knob is used as a "blender" to blend the neck / bridge pups in/out? :think:

Also - are there any gains / losses to be found in what is used for the tremelo / bridge. I believe there is the vintage-style "synchronized" tremolo; the American Series bridge, which is a modern-day two-pivot bridge; and a locking tremolo. Also if I buy a new body which has not been used and there is just the hole throughthe body for the trem, are there any sorts that would be particularly easy or difficult to fit / drill, etc. I suddenly found myself tempted by the possibility of a hardtail when I thought about this, but I think that might be cheating, and making the guitar a non-strat in a way.

There's been mention of squiers etc in the posts - I take it the bullets are the cheapest/lowest quality, then the affinity, then the ones with no extra name.

Thanks for your help again.

PS - E-Bay's a funny place - with what I've seen so far it looks as if it might be cheaper to buy a complete squier and sell the bits I don't want than to buy the body and neck seperately. There seems to be a lot of bidding and a lot of buyers keen to buy squier parts - and usa fender parts will be right out of my price range. Making me wonder if the second hand idea is going to be as feasible as I thought it would be. :icon_whoknows:
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Strummer07
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by Strummer07 »

I cant comment on most of the questions you ask VB
But one that I can ............"To Tremolo or not to Tremolo" ...that is the question??????????

if EC hates 'em

I hate 'em

I can't see the point at all ......unless you want to sound like the Shadows

Stay hardtail all the way....mine is solidly blocked off .......................................I may have to see a Doctor !! :yikes:

There may be a joke in there somewhere .............just don't fish for it too hard !!!
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

I suppose Jeff Beck uses the trem quite a bit too. But then I'm not going to be able to sound like him anyway - no-one else does.

I take your point there Strummer and it's difficult to argue with it, BUT ... the question within the question is:-

Does a hard tailed strat with no trhough and back cavity sound less Strat like that one that has a tremelo that has been blocked off?

Aaaaaarghhhhh. Too many questions!!! :mercy:
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Blindboy
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by Blindboy »

As far as a tremelo goes, I have no reccomendation. I put a Schecter (I think) floating trem on my Strat years ago. Took a bit of doing, as a standard Strat trem cavity won't fit a floating trem (at least this one) and it took some routing with a dremel tool to accomplish it. After a few weeks, I decided that I hated a floating trem and put extra springs in it and have since lost the handle. I do, however, like the sound that the springs give a strat, even if the trem isn't used. I believe HBL stated in an earlier thread that he doesn't like that sound. Takes all kinds. :big_smile: I do like what some guitarists do with a flush handle (tremelo), such as SRV's Dirty Pool, or Lenny, but I don't use one.
A thought about the body.... do you have woodworking tools? A strat body wouldn't be too hard to make, and Stewart Macdonald has templates for accurate routing and drilling. As for a neck, I could get you a no-name neck that is decent for just the cost of shipping it to you. My Dad has it and will never use it. Let me know if you are interested.
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VikingBlues
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by VikingBlues »

Blindboy wrote:As far as a tremelo goes, I have no reccomendation. I put a Schecter (I think) floating trem on my Strat years ago. Took a bit of doing, as a standard Strat trem cavity won't fit a floating trem (at least this one) and it took some routing with a dremel tool to accomplish it. After a few weeks, I decided that I hated a floating trem and put extra springs in it and have since lost the handle. I do, however, like the sound that the springs give a strat, even if the trem isn't used. I believe HBL stated in an earlier thread that he doesn't like that sound. Takes all kinds. :big_smile: I do like what some guitarists do with a flush handle (tremelo), such as SRV's Dirty Pool, or Lenny, but I don't use one.
I've had guitars in the past where I've had a trem and I've never really used them, or got the hang of them. Now that my music of choice has changed to a style where whammy bar stuff would be out of place I can see I won't use it. So I ended up thinking, why the expense and work in putting one in - but then I'm sure there will be a different sound with a blocked off trem than with a hardtail bridge. Ho hum. :think:
Blindboy wrote:A thought about the body.... do you have woodworking tools? A strat body wouldn't be too hard to make, and Stewart Macdonald has templates for accurate routing and drilling. As for a neck, I could get you a no-name neck that is decent for just the cost of shipping it to you. My Dad has it and will never use it. Let me know if you are interested.
:high5: :big_smile: :clap: :pray: That is such a generous offer Blindboy, and I'd be mad not to recognise that - maybe this is the plus that more than balances out my being awake between 4 and 5 in the morning - hmmm... that means there's another minus coming up somewhere. I'll PM you shortly. The main negatives normally of a no-name neck is knowing if it's any good - with your recommendation that worry dissapears in a puff of smoke.

BTW I do have woodworking tools including a router and have in the past done a strat / tele crossbreed style body and a Fender Jazz style bass using a blown up prints from Fender spec sheets. (Both of these ended up being dismantled and sold to fund my guitar purchases last year).

Wow ... I'm lost for words now (there's a first!) - thank you - the 12bar site keeps getting better. :D
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weelie
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Re: Advice from Strat players?

Post by weelie »

Maybe the best (="most stratty")stock Mexican strat I've playd in the stores, was Robert Cray signature model. Very stratty, to me, though hardtail.

I guess the best functioning tremelo kit for strat is http://www.tremking.com/ but personally I'd stick with vintage.

But I never got one, as I sort of think the trem is part of the reason to have a strat. If you of course don't see anything worth emulating in Jeff Beck's or Ike Turner's trem playing (for example), go hardtail. Of course less need for perfect setup, with hardtail.
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