Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

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VikingBlues
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Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by VikingBlues »

http://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/mu ... e=features

Several months ago on another guitar forum far away, full of squabbles and the usual forum antics :sad: that make me leave after a short time (thank goodness for 12bar.de :D ), someone posted an article to start a thread that talked about experiments with bombarding guitars with certain types of vibrations to try to make them sound better. The post was met with huge ridicule, and even more anger and dismissive put-downs. Lots of accusations of "crackpot ideas" and "they're only in it for the money" and "it doesn't matter what sort of wood guitars are made of", etc. Everything got to such a hysterical pitch that I have only posted there once since and have no bookmarked links to the site any more. :thumbsdown:

Well, I see Yamaha are now officially using some sort of similar technique as per the above link.

I found the idea quite intriguing as my (very limited) understanding of more recent thoughts on the way the universe works is very much to do with the vibration of matter. At a gut level it sort of made sense to me that a material that relies so much on vibration to perform well would also be affected over time by those vibrations and could meld its structure slowly to consistent stimulation.

I know there's a strong engineering and technical knowledge among the members of this site, and I'm interested to know what you all think of this one. :icon_whoknows:

This was the original post on that other forum:-

"This is an interview by Dave Berrluck from Guitarist magazine with John Suhr. Very interesting stuff,

G: You’re applying for your first patent, a way to induce resonance by vibrating the body, yes? Tell us about that.

JS: The patent is, I think, mainly to make sure nobody else can stop us from doing it more than something I think is going to be the next big thing. It’s really so I have the space to explore and someone can’t come along and say, “that’s my idea!” The idea itself is nothing new —it’s been done in the acoustic guitar world and in the violin world and I’m sure in the electric guitar world but the fun part for me is the analysis of the vibration of the wood. So, no ifs or buts.

For example, if I take Mike Landau’s favourite Strat and remove everything off the body and I analyse that body’s vibrations and I compare it to one I’ve cut and painted as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t matter how you got there, if they have the same response they have the same response. I don’t see any fault with analysing the vibrations of the wood because to me that’s it. Anything you do to that body is going to change it but with this process we can see what’s changed and by how much.

G: Will this process also allow you to vibrate the wood to change its response?

JS: Yes, but that’s not what my patent is because many people have proven that it is a reality. My patent is on how I’m doing it which is totally non-destructive; it doesn’t require any permanent mounting or anything to the guitar. And I am able to vibrate it with extreme amounts of energy.

G: Would this be something you could offer as a retro service, to alter and improve the response of an instrument?

JS: Yes, a customer will be able to ship the Suhr guitar back to us and have it treated. And also it kind of throws a bit of a wrench into the works. I’m not going to say that this is it, it works wonderful because I honestly don’t know yet. I just need to have the patent to allow me to explore it further but I know now that I can analyse the vibrations and to me that is the most important thing. So I can say this neck doesn’t belong on this body because they’re too close to this interval or whatever the problem is, they’re causing a dead spot or they’re causing a spot on the guitar that’s too loud, or certain frequencies are not being produced. I can even compare the output of the pickups to the resonance of the body and see what happens at different frequencies and why.

I’m convinced we’re gonna learn some things that we never knew about. I don’t know of anyone who has gone into it in this depth. People have done a lot with acoustics, looking at patterns and how dust settles on the top. Archtop makers like Bob Benedetto will sit there and tap on a guitar but I asked him once, when he taps on an archtop top what is he looking for? He said, “I’m looking to make some sense out of it before the day I die.” About the only thing he can really tell when he taps on a guitar is how thick the top is. That’s primarily what he’s looking for, the thickness of the top — is it strong enough, can he get away with removing some more wood? But as far as is this going to be a great sounding top, he’s like… someday I’ll find out.

It might be a situation that we’ll say to an artist — who has a wonderful guitar —bring in that guitar and we’ll plot it out and we’ll figure out how to make a body that vibrates the same. But I’m not going to blow smoke up anyone’s ****. If I don’t know, I’ll tell you I don’t know. However, if you think about measuring repeatable measurements compared to people just trying to listen in different environments with different pickups and bridges, there’s just no comparison. We’re talking about getting down to the root level of how this piece of wood is vibrating. It doesn’t matter if it was cut down 20 years ago or 400 years ago. If those two pieces of wood vibrate the same then they’re going to sound the same.

My hunch is that we are going to be able to selectively bombard it with frequencies to make certain frequencies come out. For example, if I find a dip at a certain frequency where its not resonating or sustaining I am pretty convinced that I can bombard it with that frequency and make it have a better response, if not correct it. It kinda throws a funny offset into it because if this is true and it really works this way then you’re basically saying that if someone has been playing the guitar badly, or one way, for twenty years, would this influence the way that piece of wood vibrates and there’s a good chance it might. If there’s molecular reasons why, in a cellular level of the wood, this might be the case it really just has to do with it loosening up at certain frequencies. It’s kind of like breaking in a speaker. We all know that you break in a speaker and it will sound very different.

There’s still a lot more to it [the electric guitar] than most people think. I’ve seen guitars, not necessarily my own, that customers would want to put pickups into and they don’t like the way something sounds and I can try everything in the world but if that guitar just doesn’t ring properly its never going to sound good."
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
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Golfxzq
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by Golfxzq »

Well VB you have peaked my interest... not that I am a vibrations expert but I do have some background in vibration analysis. At one time in my career I was the manager of a team of engineers who did vibration analysis so I had to understand what they were doing just so I could detect when someone was "blowing smoke". That said, here are my initial thoughts on this proposal.

I agree that there could be some merit in subjecting a new instrument to specific frequency vibrations to "settle in" the various components such as the bridge, nut, frets, neck, etc... all the attached pieces. This may shorten the "break in" period of a new instrument. I can't say for certain because this process is new to me, but intuitively, it sounds reasonable.

I definitely agree that a lot can be learned by "analyzing" the various wood components of the instrument such as the neck, headstock, and body. Every physical object has a "natural frequency" at which it responds (vibrates) when excited. It would be a great benefit to be able to match the parts or to "tune" them, if you will, to be correctly matched to provide the optimum frequency response when they are attached together. This could be why some instruments sounds better than others... the components just happen to be matched to provide a better vibration response.

Based on my current knowledge I am very doubtful that they are able to "change" the natural frequency of an existing instrument by bombarding it with various frequencies. I say this based on the same information provided in the previous paragraph about natural frequencies. I have never heard of an object's natural frequency being changed due to the vibrations being applied to it over time. But, based on the first paragraph information, above, the total instrument frequency could change due to the "settling in" of the components.

HOWEVER... I would "never say never" because just as you do someone will do it. At one time no one thought we would be able to chat in real time to anyone around the world while sitting in the comfort of our own homes.... but here we are!!!

As for matching new instrument to older ones... As wood ages it's molecular structure changes and thereby the natural frequency also changes. This could explain why some rare 100 year old instruments sound much better than new models. There are probably a lot more 100+ year old instruments which sound crappy! But, by using the analysis method discussed above maybe someone could collect the frequency responses of a quality vintage instrument and make a copy with the same response.

Interesting concept.... this may be the future of instrument design. I am glad that we have forward-thinking people like this who are looking for ways to improve our instruments.
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
- Henry Ford
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12bar
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by 12bar »

The IRA feature sounds a lot like voodoo to me. As a natural scientist I tend to rely more on physics than on feeling when it comes to technical features.

All matter has a natural frequency (and wavelength) according to De Broglie, but for things greater than electrons or atoms that's too small to notice and has nothing to do with sound.

More important is the resonance frequency for sound waves. A tuning fork is build to have almost only one frequency (440 Hz), a church bell is build to have a set of well sounding frequencies. A guitar also has resonance frequencies, but I doubt that it is possible to alter them to better sounding ones by bombarding it with distinct frequencies. I also don't think a guitar really "adapts" to a player other then getting worn out frets etc. What does Yamaha mean with "stress" between finish and woods? Strings have stress, sure (me too if I have to play when recording), but the body? And how do I "release" it? Sounds more like an esoteric marketing thing to me.

It is a known fact that the way a guitar is build has a lot of influence on its sound. But especially on electric guitars there are much more things effecting the sound. You may hear if the pickup is changed, but I doubt you'll hear a difference between a guitar before and after "releasing stress".
But that's my opinion... :oldie:
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Blindboy
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by Blindboy »

Golfxzq, people are already doing something similar to what you suggested. There is an outfit that does sophisticated analysis and computer modeling to create violins that supposedly sound exactly like a Stradivarius. I don't know what thier success rate is, but it is an interesting idea. I know that a good vintage guitar has a different (better?) sound from a new one. My dad, a luthier of the old school, says that that is because as it ages and is played, all the parts settle in, the wood changes, and the finish will have a big part of it as it ages too. (this is why he doesn't like poly finishes, they don't change and they cut down on how much the wood changes) I have known people to put a new acoustic in front of thier stereo speakers to accelerate this change. That being said, I doubt that this process will make any discernable difference in the sound of a solid body electric. The wood is a much smaller component of the sound of the guitar, so I don't think any kind of resonance treatment would make much difference. Someone might be able to tell an ash body strat from an alder body by hearing you play it, but I sure can't.
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VikingBlues
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by VikingBlues »

Thanks for your replies - it's interesting to see what your impressions have been on this.

:think: I find it very difficult to know how much to read into these sort of things as to are they innovation and proper research or how much is just marketing BS. For example, I found it fascinating that we are told that having chambered "solid"guitar bodies is suddenly great for improving tone at exactly the time that wood of the right quality and lower density stopped becoming easily available - or is it just to reduce weight to reasonable levels? :aha: I also have heard that Gibson have reverted to the longer neck "tenon" on Les Pauls and are extolling the benefits of this after a good few years of assuring us all that the shorter ones they were using then were fine.

I do know from my own humble attempts at guitar building that there is a huge complexity of factors going into making a guitars tone and sound. I had two very similar Les Paul type guitars for hardware and (allegedly) for woods but they did sound very different - although the dimensions and style and pickups were exactly the same one had a much lighter body (although both were supposed to be mahogany) to the extent that use of a nylon strap would see the neck working its way to point at the floor. Of course the quality of the joins of neck and body could have been an influence too, along with quality of electrical components, soldering joins, etc, etc, etc.......... I have also tried a self build strat style guitar with a mahogany body - regadless of all the rest of the woods and hardware being standard "strat" stuff, I could not get it to sound like a strat whatever I did, nice though its sounds were. :wall:

I suppsoe there's the difficulty of not being able to scientifically measure whether a musical tone is going to be specially pleasing - apart from anything else it may well be pleasing to one person while another might hate it. So I guess we're stuck with not knowing the answers. Ho hum - that sounds a fmiliar place to be. :sad:

It would be nice though if a procedure could be found that meant we had less need to try out several guitars of the same model to find one that is a gem and weed out the ones where the wood seems to have had ambitions to be a park bench, and a tone deaf park bench at that. :roll:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
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vancouverois
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by vancouverois »

I have a '06 SG 2000 that is factory IRA "treated".
The SG line is really well build, the woods seem quite nice too and my guess is good quality
brings nice tone/sound. I never had the opportunity to compare mine with a vintage one though.

I am not sure about IRA, I guess it's just some kinda sales hype.
A good amp certainly makes a bigger difference in my opinion.
Good pickups may help too.

The SG is pretty heavy, more than an average LP. It is now considered (trend) that a light guitar produces
a better tone. :think:
It's like the short and long tenon debate or ebony vs rosewood fretboard... Mostly sales stuff.
Jan 15th 2007
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BadBluesPlayer
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by BadBluesPlayer »

Lots of people have an intuitive hunch that different woods and materials contribute to the sound of a guitar.

I would classify this man's proposal as more of a hunch, or intuitive guess. He needs to do way more research. He needs to study the science of this stuff alot more before he starts trying to "engineer" anything. The guy doesn't need a patent to do research.

Having all the parts of a guitar vibrating at the same or compatible frequencies is a nice notion. But we already know that some of the guitars that have the most interesting harmonics, like Les Pauls, have that sound because they have two different species of wood bonded together. It's the difference in sonic properties between the two woods that creates the Les Paul sound.

By contrast, an ES-339, or an ES-335 has a more monotonic sound (the moan tone) that's thought to be due to the fact that the body is all one species. Different that the ES-336 or 356 models, which are more like a hollowed out Les Pauls, with a maple cap over a one piece mahogany center block and sides.

So I guess I'd say that the guy - and Yamaha - have alot more research to do before they can engineer anything to sound a particular way. These guys have a very limited understanding of this stuff at this point.

It's a really interesting subject, though. It needs to be researched more.

:think:
TyroneSydow

Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by TyroneSydow »

I think the wood of the fret boad matters, the wood of the body doesn't.
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12bar
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by 12bar »

Why?
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ElMano
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Re: Yamaha Initial Response Acceleration

Post by ElMano »

TyroneSydow wrote:I think the wood of the fret boad matters, the wood of the body doesn't.
First i want you to know that i am absolute not an expert but i have been building a lot of electric guitars from all kind of stuff, Tin Cans, Cigarboxes, expensive wood, cheap wood, Frankensteins and so on. I am very sure the material of the body matters. Recently i had been produce wooden combs for bluesharps. I use an two side coated Birch plywood. For two reasons 1e: the coating protect the tooths when sawing against splinters, The strength, the crossed glued layers keep the tooth strong. (the 3e reason is that i get it cheap :clap:) After sawing i have to sand it from 8mm down to 7mm. I use a band sander-machine upside down mounted on a construction. I pull the comb under a press-roll. And when the wood hit the high speed running band it give a sound just like twisted your finger over a whet crystal wineglass. I tried maple an a couple of other pieces of wood at the same pressure. They all sound different heights. ( shaped it all the same of course) I have learned to recognize what kind of wood make a fine sound as instrument. The wooden cover plates all so make a different sound Much warmer Not as bright as metal ones. I like to know more of that phenomenon So i search on the net and i found the information of Chladni patterns .
For me it is absolute clear that it matters. If it is possible the same vibes exactly to duplicate on a series of instruments ?? i am not sure but the first one who succeed can urn a lot of money.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/guita ... ladni.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIvAsZvBiw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3x5iq3o ... re=related
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