How should I start?

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D28boy
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How should I start?

Post by D28boy »

Hi I'm a recent member & returnee to the Electric. Played years ago with a band but only rhythm so have a reasonable knowledge of chords ...Had a 20+ year gap picked up the acoustic about 3 years ago & got to a reasonable standard (can play Tears in Heaven ok)& now have just got an electric again. My question really is what is the best route to follow to learn some blues/melodic rock lead? I've looked at the pentatonic scale (& blues scale) & five positions though haven't really completely got them memorised and have learnt some lead by ear/tab. Currently playing Still got the Blues by Gary Moore for example & Wonderful Tonite....Took my first lesson this week & the guy has given me a load of scales to learn, major,minor etc etc.... with a fair bit of theory...Is this the best way forward as I've never had a lesson before & don't know what I should expect. Going to be taking one lesson a month. Any advice would be appreciated.
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MikeJackal
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Re: How should I start?

Post by MikeJackal »

I have thought about having lessons a few times and probably will do eventually, just not financially viable right now. I think having a set routine and some professional direction in what you should be learning is definitely a good idea.
My advice (by no means expert) is to get the pentatonic scales completely memorised, the blues scale particularly. If you are indeed set on following the blues/rock route then it is the most important scale to learn to form competent solo's that sound good. When i first started learning them i picked the first position in A and just played it and played it until i knew what sounds went together, then moved on to second position, then tried to link them. My 2 cents.
"You Only Live But Once, When Your Dead Your Done...So Let The Good Times Roll" - B.B. King
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BadBluesPlayer
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Re: How should I start?

Post by BadBluesPlayer »

I am a great believer in the principle that if you want to learn to play like somebody, follow their recipe. Learn the way they did and play the way they do.

Most of the greats learned to play the blues by ear with no theory. If you can learn this way - if you have a good ear and enough motivation to learn by trial and error and copying others, you'll be a better player in a shorter time. Once you get good at playing, then you can learn theory and get some insights into how to play.

Most of the greats play their solos in common places on the fretboard. These are "boxes" or "positions". My advice is to learn to solo by playing in the common boxes. When you play in different keys, you'll just move the boxes up and down the fretboard to change the key you're playing in. Every blues master that I've studied closely does this. BB, Clapton, Hendryx, Albert King, SRV. You don't have to play this way, but pretty much everybody does. If you want to play a certain lick, there's almost always one best way to play that lick, in a certain box using a certain fingering.

I do not recommend using the CAGED system to learn. I believe its counterproductive because it goes against the principle that you should play in boxes and transpose by moving the boxes up and down the fretboard.

When you're learning all these scales, remember that the goal in improvising is to become fluent in your playing, not necessarily to learn music theory. Being smart about theory is great, but that's not the way these guys learned. Playing guitar is a physical activity, like kicking a ball. You can learn all you want about the theory of kicking a ball, but it still comes down to practice and feel and muscle memory. If you start thinking too much while you're trying to kick the ball, you're going to muff it.

:thumbsup:
D28boy
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Re: How should I start?

Post by D28boy »

thanx for the advice guys...

Badbluesplayer- I maybe wrong but isn't the CAGED system just another box system that can moved about according to the key?
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BadBluesPlayer
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Re: How should I start?

Post by BadBluesPlayer »

D28boy wrote:thanx for the advice guys...

Badbluesplayer- I maybe wrong but isn't the CAGED system just another box system that can moved about according to the key?
Its another system of finding your way around the fretboard, but its not a box system. Its basically a way to learn how to play chords at different places on the fretboard by using different shapes and using those relationships to do your transposing. Its based on the assumption that learning chord shapes is easier than learning scale patterns and the assumption that its easier to transpose your solos by transposing the chord shapes to any one of five locations and then selecting the proper scale pattern to fit the transposed scale shape. The problem is that all the good blues guitarists use boxes and do their transposing by moving the boxes - or scale patterns - up and down to transpose.

The box system is used to teach just soloing, without having to know about chord shapes. Its particularly useful to teach blues and rock guitarists, because good soloists think of patterns on the fretboard instead of thinking of chord shapes and transposing them using the CAGED system and then trying to deduce what notes to play by picking them from the transposed chord.

I never saw Clapton, Hendryx, BB, Albert, SRV or any of those guys transpose by using the CAGED system. You can tell by how they move from one place to another. I have seen some guys like Kenny Burrell and Barney Kessel - jazz guys - playing some leads where they are moving around in a way that is more complicated than just "boxes". But they're still using boxes most of the time. Those guys are doing stuff that's beyond my understanding, and I get the impression that they do some of it based on trial and error, and do some of it by having some deeper understanding of the music theory of it.

But for your average Joe I think it works better to learn boxes - because its easier to learn and that's the way that all the good guys learned. I don't know enough to understand everything that the CAGED system teaches. Somebody who knows the CAGED thing better might be able to point out more advantages to learning it that way.

The other thing that's better about boxes is this. You're not going to be playing any open chords. They'll all going to be barre chords or partial chords with no open notes. You'll be transposing these chords by most of the time by sliding those chord shapes up and down the fretboard and maybe using two chord shapes at the most. When you change the key, the chords you use move up and down the fretboard with the scale patterns, so it makes it easier to keep track of where you are while you're playing.

Does that make sense? :big_smile:
MajorTom
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Re: How should I start?

Post by MajorTom »

BadBluesPlayer wrote:Playing guitar is a physical activity, like kicking a ball. You can learn all you want about the theory of kicking a ball, but it still comes down to practice and feel and muscle memory. If you start thinking too much while you're trying to kick the ball, you're going to muff it. :thumbsup:
I agree with everything BadBluesPlayer has said.
From my point of view, I've found boxes and straight scales far more helpful than the CAGED system, and much more enjoyable and easily usable from early on too.
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Blindboy
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Re: How should I start?

Post by Blindboy »

I also agree with BadBluesPlayer...
That's how I learned to play leads. I learned the pentatonic minor box, fooled with it until I found a lick that fit into actual music, and took off from there. After a while, when you learn the various boxes and how they relate to the bar chords, and how to put in "blue notes", you stop thinking about the boxes and just play.
"Throw yo' big leg over me Mama, I might not feel this good again!"
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VikingBlues
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Re: How should I start?

Post by VikingBlues »

Blindboy wrote:After a while, when you learn the various boxes and how they relate to the bar chords, and how to put in "blue notes", you stop thinking about the boxes and just play.
Absolutely. Also after a while the brain / muscle memory thing kicks in and you find yourself playing what's in your head without thinking about boxes, chord shapes or any theory - it's very liberating when it just flows like that. :thumbsup:

As far as blues lead goes I reckon the three important things for me were (1) the pentatonic boxes + the ideas of when the additional blues notes / other notes could be used, (2) practice of the pentatonic leads over good backing tracks, and (3) finding a way that worked for me to be able to listen to what I play and anticipate what the notes I play will sound like. Playing a phrase that leads into the change of chord you know instinctively is coming up. It's something that can be worked on for years too - and be improved all the time.

The best blues teaching I have found so far has been by Michael "Hawkeye" Herman. He teaches blues the way he learned it from the likes of Son House, Brownie McGhee, Bukka White, Mance Lipscomb, Furry Lewis, Lightin' Hopkins, John Jackson, K.C. Douglas, and Sam Chatmon. With very little reference to theory, but by "showing" rather than "telling".
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
doc
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Re: How should I start?

Post by doc »

I am new here as well. I started with acoustic a few decades back. What worked for me was a combination of lessons, mostly for the theory, and practice. Some things that have worked for me (tot he extent anything has) is to drill. Also playing along with someone. The "Blues You can Use" and "More Blues You can Use" were helpful to me.
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12bar
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Re: How should I start?

Post by 12bar »

:welcome:

There are many ways to learn, some great tips have already been given. The way I started is described in the blues tutorial on this site (see upper menu). I recommend (if you want to learn classic Blues) to start with the simple pentatonic as a base. Find the Blue note(s), slowly add some notes from the major scale if the song need. Don't rely too much on scale theory, rely on your ear. Listen to the Blues and play to it.
kiwiclapton
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Re: How should I start?

Post by kiwiclapton »

12bar wrote::welcome:

....... Listen to the Blues and play to it.
Great advice!
In the name of God, Eric Clapton and the Slowhand, Amen.
D28boy
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Re: How should I start?

Post by D28boy »

Once again ..thanx to everyone efor their kind advice
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SteveB
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Re: How should I start?

Post by SteveB »

Hey, some extremely good advice on this thread. :D
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JonG
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Re: How should I start?

Post by JonG »

I would say the best way to learn is listen to and play along with as many blues recordings as you can and play by ear as much as you can. Once you get a handle on that then progress to some professional training re chord structures and scales relationships. I find that players who went the technical route first play lots of good notes but without feel and passion, which is vitally important for blues. Feel it, play it, don't analyse it. Over time you will create your own style borrowed from lots of others but it will be undeniably you. Just my two pennies worth !
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weelie
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Re: How should I start?

Post by weelie »

ok, i am maybe beating a dead horse, but to me caged is not opposed to minor pentatonic boxes! Caged is about playin chords (and scales) in 5 positions around the fretboard. Minor pentatonic boxes is about playing 5 positions around the fretboard. Box 1 looks like e minor chord, for example.

The easiest way to sound good is following the chords (or melody). Good players do that without concious thought, but they do it anyway. Of course, this is maybe more evident in acoustic playing.

If you play a solo, you should see/hear the underlying harmony (chords, melody). So learn the chords in the same position as the box, so you can borrow some chord notes.

Like in first box position you have e shape chord, a shape chord and c7 (or b7) shape chord. (note: sometimes caged is referred to daf as open g and a chords and c and d are the same shape, just two frets apart)

I still think learning horizontally is a more musical way of learning. Works as an additional exercise, at least.
MichaelRobinson
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Re: How should I start?

Post by MichaelRobinson »

If you find youre lessons usefull for you, just continue with them. If not. Try something else that fits youre style and youre personality. I don't think there is a standard path to follow. It's all up to you what you want. In the end, it's you how play the musik the way you like it.
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