What's in the Box?

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Golfxzq
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What's in the Box?

Post by Golfxzq »

Hi Guys (and gals)...

Lately I have been taking a look at BB King's Blues boxes (thanks to Kallie). Attached is a file showing three boxes commonly used by BB King in the key of G. I have a question which I am certain can be answered by some of you theory experts.

Key of G ==> G A B C D E F#

Box 1, third fret ==> G A B D E with the "color notes" as F and A# (also C & G but they are already in the key of G). So why do F and A# work?

Box 2, sixth fret ==> G C D F A# There they are again... F and A# this time in the box. (B as a color note, but it is in the key of G).

Box 3, seventh fret ==> G C D E A with the color notes of A# (again twice!), B (in the key), and this time it includes a C# which is not in the key of G.

My question is why do the A# and F as regular "box notes" or "color notes" and C# as a "color note" work in these boxes which are supposedly based on the key of G?

Thanks....
Soloing-King.pdf
Soloing - King
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StratLover2
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by StratLover2 »

Hi Golfzxq!

I know a decent bit about theory but not much. What I can tell you is that I know that the A# or B flat belongs in the G minor pentatonic scale, and from what I have seen, the F# appears in the G Ionian, and major scales. It may be that B.B King is adding a bit of color by combining major with a minor pentatonic scale, I don't know, but that is my educated guess. (Not much of one at that!)

About the C#, that I believe is also in the G major scale, at least in the Ionian scale which was one of the first major scales I learned.

I hope this didn't confuse you too much, I tried to make it very simple to understand.

Let me know if this helps,

StratLover2
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VikingBlues
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by VikingBlues »

Golfxzq. I'm not surprised you're confused. Me too! :yikes:

You've the Key of G ==> G A B C D E F#
You've the G Minor ==> G A Bb C D Eb F
The Pentatonic Major => G A B D E
The Pentatonic Minor => G Bb C D F
The Six Note Blues Scale => G Bb C Db D F

Then there's the "sweet" note B (appears a lot in Texas Blues I believe) often following playing the Bb.
Then there's also E referred to as another sweet note.

So there's notes that support the harmony, notes that clash and add tension, all depending on which of the chords are being played.

Add to this mix the question of modes:-
Take the Minor G Pentatonic - add A and E - Dorian Mode
Take the Minor G Pentatonic - add A and Eb - Aeolian Mode
Taek the Minor G Pentatonic - add Ab and Eb - Phrygian Mode
Of course - deciding which mode might work depends on the flavours and varieties of the chords that are being played. Each mode does have a flavour to it - with enough practice I believe you start to hear which mode is appropriate from just listening to the chords.

Ummm ... did I say I'm confused too! No wonder. :wall:

This all reminds me why I'm so pleased that my brush with intervallic ear training has allowed me to often hear the notes i want to play in my head and play them on the fretboard. :big_smile: It gives a wonderful release from trying to learn, remember, and apply theory as I'm playing. I think in my case trying to think logically while playing something means the elimination of creative musical ideas and melodies. I've given up understanding why in favour of trying to hear the sound of what works and recreate it where appropriate. I think there's too much useless knowledge crammed into my head, and my long term memory has the door locked. :thumbsdown:

Which goes no way to answering your question. Sorry. :roll:

Hopefully some of the more clued up members of the forum can throw some light on it for you - I just wanted to say you're not alone in your puzzlement.
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Bluesmole
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by Bluesmole »

I'm no theory expert, but, looking at the boxes, BB uses a mix of maj./min. pentatonics with passing notes. :oldie:
"Big Bill Broonzy, a white boy's inspiration" (1963), and the Blues ever since.
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weelie
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by weelie »

For blues music, forget the ionian (major scale), and use mixolydian instead. That's the "seventh chord" version of major scale. So G mixolydian is: GABCDEF. Of course you can think in Dorian too, it's same scale but minor: G A A# B C D E F.

Then also the b5 and b3 also belong to blues. Often used as passing tones.

The b3 (A# here) is of course the note that makes the scale minor. So it's part of the blues scale or the minor pentatonic. Often bent or slid up to the major third. Both in country and blues.

The b5 (C#) is called a blue note, it's the note in blues scale that is not in minor pentatonic. Of course the 4th (C) is often bent up to the b5 or to 5 (=D).

I've heard BB king plays the sixth a lot. I wouldn't really know. I think the best approach is to know the chord played and use notes from that chord. Check "Inner logic" by Mathieu Brandt (on youtube) for one way of doing that.

Then again I know people like T-Bone Walker use the 9th and 6th intervals in addition to minor pentatonic, plus hammering on to the 3rd from a fret down. Meaning of course that they play mixolydian (or dorian if you wish).
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Golfxzq
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by Golfxzq »

:beer: Thank you all for the great information... Modes is something that I have not really gotten into but I am beginning to.
StratLover2 wrote:It may be that B.B King is adding a bit of color by combining major with a minor pentatonic scale, I don't know, but that is my educated guess. (Not much of one at that!)

About the C#, that I believe is also in the G major scale, at least in the Ionian scale which was one of the first major scales I learned.
From what I have learned the G Ionian Mode is the SAME as the G Major... correct? So... no C#.... G A B C D E F#. But I believe that you are on the right track saying that BB King mixes Major and Minor scale notes.

I have read that BB King plays minor scale notes over scores in a major key.

The G Pentatonic Major scale: G A B D E
The G Pentatonic Minor scale, with the blue note added: G A# C (C#) D F

That covers everything in the three boxes given:

Box 1: G A B D E, from the G Pent. Maj. and F A# C G, from the G Pent. Min. and the C# blue note.

Box 2: G C D F A#, from the G Pent. Min. and B from the G Pent. Maj.

Box 3: G D E A B, from the G Pent. Maj. and C A# C# from the G Pent. Min. and blue note.

Am I correct with this? I have tried playing A Major notes over a piece in A Minor and some of the notes did not sound right. Then I read somewhere that you can easily play Minor notes over a Major piece but it is difficult to play Major notes over a Minor piece. Has anyone ever encountered this? I would really like to know how to properly mix Major and Minor.... hay, BB sounds pretty good doing it!
Viking Blues wrote:This all reminds me why I'm so pleased that my brush with intervallic ear training has allowed me to often hear the notes i want to play in my head and play them on the fretboard. :big_smile: It gives a wonderful release from trying to learn, remember, and apply theory as I'm playing. I think in my case trying to think logically while playing something means the elimination of creative musical ideas and melodies. I've given up understanding why in favour of trying to hear the sound of what works and recreate it where appropriate.
I wish that my ear was so well tuned. In my short and limited study of Modes I have come to realize that they are all about intervals... same notes, just at different intervals and with different roots. The ear is the key... I think you have to be able to hear what sounds good in order to play it. I have a hard enough time playing and hitting the intended notes without having to simultaneously think about what mode I am in. If I am able to hear what sounds correct, as you are, it would free me up to be more expressive. Thanks for that advice, I'll have to work on intervals.

Weelie... I plan to check out the "Inner Logic" on You Tube... any help is appreciated.

Thanks to you all, great information. This has gotten me thinking about things that I might not have ever thought about.
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VikingBlues
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by VikingBlues »

Golfxzq wrote:Modes is something that I have not really gotten into but I am beginning to.

Until I saw David Wallimann explaining how the playing of modes fitted in so logically with the pentatonic they had me baffled - as pure theory always baffles me. Seeing how modes worked was a bit of an overnight blinding revelation. :aha:
Golfxzq wrote:I have tried playing A Major notes over a piece in A Minor and some of the notes did not sound right. Then I read somewhere that you can easily play Minor notes over a Major piece but it is difficult to play Major notes over a Minor piece. Has anyone ever encountered this? I would really like to know how to properly mix Major and Minor.... hay, BB sounds pretty good doing it!
Though it's theoretically disonnant I think our ears accept that the b3 sung / played against a major / dominant chord is bluesy.
I do know that if you take the basic I,IV,V - say in E - the I has E,G#,B. The G# is half a step away from its closest note in the blues scale. (E,G,A,Bb,B,D). So when you play the G as a lead note you get that clash - which I believe, is supposed to give blues a lot of its character. Maybe??? Why it works one way round and not the other ..... :icon_whoknows:

I really only know that I like it! :big_smile:
Golfxzq wrote:The ear is the key... I think you have to be able to hear what sounds good in order to play it. I have a hard enough time playing and hitting the intended notes without having to simultaneously think about what mode I am in. If I am able to hear what sounds correct, as you are, it would free me up to be more expressive. Thanks for that advice, I'll have to work on intervals.
It is something that gradually sinks in - often there will be an acceleration when you find a particular technique, theory, or practice routine that works for you. But there seems to be a great variety of ways players get hold of abilty in this area. I do find that the technique of singing along with lead notes as you play them helps (although it might scare the local livestock) - I guess there's an element of muscle memory to that technique. Anything that means the note choice becomes instinctive, rather than thought about, works well for me. :thumbsup:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!
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12bar
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by 12bar »

Modes are interesting, but other ways also work to describe these things.
I've written it down some time ago, it's part of the tutorial: http://12bar.de/basics.php .
And you're right, ionian is what we call THE major scale.

We've discussed this in the old forum (some members sound familiar :high5: ). Maybe worth a read...
http://12bar.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2930
http://12bar.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2071 - this discussion shows how far you can get when trying to describe the Blues...

Finally, on this page is an interview snippet with BB, where he describes his way:
http://12bar.de/bluesgreats.php
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Golfxzq
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by Golfxzq »

That's some great links there, 12Bar... Yes, I did recognize several of those members :lol:

I spent about two hours going over all that information. Some of it I have seen before and some was new but it was all great stuff. Sooooo much to learn, it takes quite a while to let it all sink in.

Thanks for the help.
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D28boy
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by D28boy »

Golfxzq wrote:Hi Guys (and gals)...

Lately I have been taking a look at BB King's Blues boxes (thanks to Kallie). Attached is a file showing three boxes commonly used by BB King in the key of G. I have a question which I am certain can be answered by some of you theory experts.

Key of G ==> G A B C D E F#

Box 1, third fret ==> G A B D E with the "color notes" as F and A# (also C & G but they are already in the key of G). So why do F and A# work?

Box 2, sixth fret ==> G C D F A# There they are again... F and A# this time in the box. (B as a color note, but it is in the key of G).

Box 3, seventh fret ==> G C D E A with the color notes of A# (again twice!), B (in the key), and this time it includes a C# which is not in the key of G.

My question is why do the A# and F as regular "box notes" or "color notes" and C# as a "color note" work in these boxes which are supposedly based on the key of G?

Thanks....
Soloing-King.pdf

What the the BB King song that the tab isfrom Golfxzq?
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Golfxzq
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by Golfxzq »

Hi D28,

Cool licks, huh? Love that BB sound. I took this tear sheet from a web site. I think it was Jamplay. Something either provided by Kallie or at least inspired by him back the first part of January. I'll look it up tonight when I get home and give you a good link.
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right."
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Golfxzq
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by Golfxzq »

D28....

Here's the site where I downloaded the BB King box tab. I'm afraid it doesn't exactly specify which song these are from, just that they are from BB's favorite boxes. I hope this helps a bit... there is tons of great information out there on the web but the BEST stuff is right here on the 12Bar site, you should check out the Blues Tutorial section.

http://www.guitarworld.com/article/solo ... s_b_b_king
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BadBluesPlayer
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by BadBluesPlayer »

Like BB King, I'm not a theory guy, just an ear player. It's easier to play like somebody when you learn like them and think like them. So I don't know - in a theoretical way - why his playing sounds so good. But I do know that he learned by singing and then learning to play the guitar with no theory.

I do know this works as a general rule. When the song is in a minor key, like Thrill is Gone, you don't want to play any major notes, just minor notes with some sixths and blue notes - what I call the Allman Bros. scale. When the song is in a major key, major notes usually sound good when you're playing over the V chord, but not so good over the I and IV chords. So it usually works to play the minor notes over the I and IV chords and then play major notes over the V chord. In other words, if its a 12 bar tune, try playing the major notes only during the 9th bar and then move back to the minor notes at the 10th bar.

BB King also plays some 16 bar tunes with I, IV, V and VI chords. In those tunes, you can play major notes over the VI and V chords. These are jazzy chord progressions, and jazz guys usually play minor notes over the I and IV and major notes over the V and VI. The way to get a jazzy sound is to mix the major and minor notes in your solos so that they work with the chords.

I know this doesn't explain any theory, but I think it works as far as making sure you don't play any sour notes.

:peace:
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nxsneil
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by nxsneil »

by BadBluesPlayer » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:30 pm

Like BB King, I'm not a theory guy, just an ear player. It's easier to play like somebody when you learn like them and think like them. So I don't know - in a theoretical way - why his playing sounds so good. But I do know that he learned by singing and then learning to play the guitar with no theory.

I do know this works as a general rule. When the song is in a minor key, like Thrill is Gone, you don't want to play any major notes, just minor notes with some sixths and blue notes - what I call the Allman Bros. scale. When the song is in a major key, major notes usually sound good when you're playing over the V chord, but not so good over the I and IV chords. So it usually works to play the minor notes over the I and IV chords and then play major notes over the V chord. In other words, if its a 12 bar tune, try playing the major notes only during the 9th bar and then move back to the minor notes at the 10th bar.

BB King also plays some 16 bar tunes with I, IV, V and VI chords. In those tunes, you can play major notes over the VI and V chords. These are jazzy chord progressions, and jazz guys usually play minor notes over the I and IV and major notes over the V and VI. The way to get a jazzy sound is to mix the major and minor notes in your solos so that they work with the chords.

I know this doesn't explain any theory, but I think it works as far as making sure you don't play any sour notes.

BadBluesPlayer
On Major scale blues Songs I mainly tend to play Major Pent/Blues scale notes over the 1 chord and Minor Pent/Blues scale notes over IV & V,this seems to be in contradiction to your formula BBP? :icon_whoknows:
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ratfinkdan
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by ratfinkdan »

I know a little theory, probably just enough to get myself in trouble. playing Blues you can get a lot of mileage out of your pentatonic scales maj and minor, listen to the blues greats thats what their doing. the notes you were asking about the c# is the blue note the flat 5, The F is the dominat 7th and the A# or B flat is the minor 3rd, a lot of blues is mixing the maj and minor scales and the dominant 7 is generally the rule not a lot of maj7 in the blues. BB plays so much in the bb box and really mixes the maj, min notes, listen to some Peter Green he get a lot of use out of the bb king box also and yes for such a simple music form there is so much to learn. Take slow, learn to milk every note you can out of those blues boxes, then start adding notes. Hope that helps a little.
MikeL
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by MikeL »

I've read this discussion with great interest. Unfortunatley I'm left thinking :wall:

But I guess I should at least do a little homework first to help catch up:
12bar wrote:Modes are interesting, but other ways also work to describe these things.
I've written it down some time ago, it's part of the tutorial: http://12bar.de/basics.php .
Gerd is it okay to print parts of the tutorial to read off line?
Cheers!
Mike

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From a guitar"
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12bar
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Re: What's in the Box?

Post by 12bar »

MikeL wrote:Gerd is it okay to print parts of the tutorial to read off line?
Sure, that's what it's made for. Use the "hide menu" button in the upper left corner to suppress printing of ads and menu. :wink:
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