Modes

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VikingBlues
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Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Thu May 20, 2010 12:07 am

So, I'm sort of getting more of a handle on how to play modes and how they relate to and all include the pentatonic notes. Some of the fog seems to be lifting thanks to an on line guitar teacher called David Wallimann. I think I understand some of what he says about theory, which is a miracle. :banana:

download/file.php?id=95

Maybe when you hear it you'll not think I'm getting yhat much of a hang of it - but it's only day 1 of trying. :alright:

BUT....

Although the playing lead and logic of that seem clearer, I still feel much in the dark about what makes a piece of music Dorain mode and not some other mode. I know I can play Dorian with this BT because it's David Wallimanns BT and he has labelled it as Dorian.

Is there an on line resource that could guide me that is simple as to what makes a collection of chords a particular mode. Please remember I've been playing for over 40 years before I've started to even get a glimmer as to what modes are, so it needs to be a resource aimed at very dumb players. :wall:

PS sorry about the half-assed pun in the track title. :roll:
Attachments


Shut thet door Ian. Trying out the Dorian Mode.
Shut that door Ian.mp3 - (3.69 MiB)

An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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weelie
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Re: Modes

Post by weelie » Thu May 20, 2010 7:56 am

Basically a track is in a mode when the chords of the progression are made of notes of the mode.

Like if you are playing in G, and you have the F chord (which is quite common), you are not playing ioanian, as that doesn't have the note F. You are in G mixolydian.

Dorian is like mixolydian but it's minor. So in G, there's the note Bb instead of B.

Do a search for modes harmonized in chords. The Torvund site might have good lesson material for you.
Last edited by weelie on Thu May 20, 2010 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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VikingBlues
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Re: Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Thu May 20, 2010 8:23 am

Thanks Weelie. :D

I find playing a more straightforward task than understanding. The older I get the more I need to understand something to be able to remember it, or it just doesn't stick. I guess there's the two sides of the brain at work, and my left side has been used too much over the years and it doesn't want to know any more! :wall:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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12bar
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Re: Modes

Post by 12bar » Thu May 20, 2010 12:40 pm

If you want to know if a chord fits to a scale, you can also use the scale generator on this site ( http://12bar.de/scale_generator.php ).
Taking Weelie's example first choose chord - F - major, click the remember button and submit.
Next choose scale - G - mixolydian (or any other you want to check) and submit.
You can now draw the upper diagram over the other one to see if the chord notes fit to the scale.
Use "Show as" if you want to know which notes or degree correspond to which chord notes.
You can also compare mixo to dorian etc. You can spend hours playing with it...

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VikingBlues
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Re: Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Thu May 20, 2010 1:03 pm

12bar wrote:If you want to know if a chord fits to a scale, you can also use the scale generator on this site ( http://12bar.de/scale_generator.php )
Thanks 12-bar - I will have a look at that. Anything to help lift the fog!
12bar wrote:You can also compare mixo to dorian etc. You can spend hours playing with it...
Hours is what I expect it'll take. :cry:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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weelie
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Re: Modes

Post by weelie » Thu May 20, 2010 1:22 pm

12bar.de stuff is great, but this is what you need now:
http://web.me.com/fusedstudios/Harmoniz ... ONIAN.html

So chords for dorian:
im7 iim7 biiiM7 IV7 vm7vim7 bVIIM7

and for mixolydian:
i7 iim7 iiim7b5 IVM7 vm7vim7 bVIIM7

etc.

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Blackhorse
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Re: Modes

Post by Blackhorse » Thu May 20, 2010 1:57 pm

I found this guy very helpful


Pt1
[youtube]JKbPIGnqt80[/youtube]

Pt2
[youtube]8uhN5h1o7ww[/youtube]

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VikingBlues
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Re: Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Thu May 20, 2010 7:25 pm

weelie wrote:this is what you need now:
http://web.me.com/fusedstudios/Harmoniz ... ONIAN.html
Thanks for the link Weelie - I've had an initial look, and it looks helpful. I'll need to put some time aside for this properly. I'll be on holiday for a week soon and won't have my guitar with me, so that'll maybe be an opportunity to study and try and undertsand some of the logic of these modes. :thumbsup:
Blackhorse wrote:I found this guy very helpful
Thanks Blackhorse. It's a very small world - instant recognition by me there of Rob Chapman aka the Monkey Lord on the video clips. :D

He was the one teacher responsible for transforming my lead playing from the real crap it used to be with his CD of intervallic training which allowed me to hear notes in my head before iI played them for the first time in nearly 40 years of playing. Oddly enough some of his videos feature on David Wallimanns YouTube Channel. David Wallimann is the Jamplay.com teacher who has sparked my interest in modes due to his classy BTs and uncomplicated teaching style.

I've looked at the linked Rob Chapman videos once and will go back over them a few times. Like David Wallimann, Rob Chapman has the ability to make things sound straightforward and sensible. :banana:
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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weelie
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Re: Modes

Post by weelie » Thu May 20, 2010 8:04 pm

The voice sounded familiar, but it was the guitar tone that made me say: "Hey this is the intervalic CD" guy.

I think those youtube links above are great for hearing the difference in the modes! But I still would always like to think in terms of relation to major scale, not the relation of a fretboard pattern at some point on the fretboard. I don't like thinking that I play C major scale over G to play in mixolydian. I prefer to think that instead G major scale, I play the 7th a fret down in it, to play in mixolydian.

Well, my two chosen modes are the dorian and mixolydian too. :)

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VikingBlues
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Re: Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Thu May 20, 2010 11:19 pm

weelie wrote:The voice sounded familiar, but it was the guitar tone that made me say: "Hey this is the intervalic CD" guy.

I think those youtube links above are great for hearing the difference in the modes! But I still would always like to think in terms of relation to major scale, not the relation of a fretboard pattern at some point on the fretboard. I don't like thinking that I play C major scale over G to play in mixolydian. I prefer to think that instead G major scale, I play the 7th a fret down in it, to play in mixolydian.

Well, my two chosen modes are the dorian and mixolydian too. :)
I think the "hearing the difference in the modes" is something I'll try and "get into". Rob Chapmans method of hearing intervals for playing lead worked so well for me - my analytical side of the brain, as I've mentioned, has seen better days - anything that allows me to play and judge what needs to be played by instinct might well have a better chance of working for me as an individual.

However I think I'll still take some of the more "analytical" stuff away with me on holiday to see if I can unlock the logic puzzle in a way that's meaningful for me and will "stick" in long term memory. :think:

I must admit that of the minor modes I am drawn towards the Phrygian - maybe it's the influence of the old classical guitar training and I used to play a bit of flamenco. I also enjoy listening to Riverside from Poland who have quite a heavy "miidle-east" mode influence in a lot of thier songs. Interesting too the way the Aeolian is like a hybrid of the Dorian and the Phygian. I've been playing around with an Aeolian BT today and quite enjoyed it. :D
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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weelie
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Re: Modes

Post by weelie » Fri May 21, 2010 11:40 am

VikingBlues wrote: I must admit that of the minor modes I am drawn towards the Phrygian
Me too. But I just don't use it my playing, except some forays into flamenco fooling around alone at home.

Maybe less interestingly, to me aeolian sounds like a mix of garlic and mayo.

mjo
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Re: Modes

Post by mjo » Mon May 24, 2010 6:42 pm

VikingBlues wrote:....
Is there an on line resource that could guide me that is simple as to what makes a collection of chords a particular mode.
The subject of modes is VERY long and contentious, many people who have yet to understand them have a lot to say on the subject,......I may be one of them :wink:

Modal music does not use full chord progressions, as you'd see with tonal, major or minor key centers. It's usually done over 1, or possibly 2 chord "vamps". This is the way modes will usually occur in tonal (key based) music, i.e. used over 1 or 2 chords as a passing tonic : you may be aware that modes of the melodic minor scale can be used in jazz-blues songs, this happens over just 1 or 2 chords, the song then returns to a key center.

For playing blues I'd suggest that learning the Mixolydian mode is very useful, as you're likely aware. I'd learn this as a scale that's just as important as the pentatonic, something you can play in a variety of positions, based on a variety of chord forms. The blues is actually a fair introduction to modal use as the way Mixolydian is used, one chord at a time, is the way it usually occurs in key based music.

Modes in general: The videos posted above are a good way to begin learning modes. You'll get used to the difference in sound, as well as understanding how they're built. Those videos do not tell you how to use the modes, however. Laying out the chords within a mode, as posted above, will be of limited use. As I said modal music does not use full, standard chord progressions, that is because as soon as you approach the Ionian, (I chord) all modal sounds are lost. As soon you introduce a major (Ionian) or minor (aeolian) you are working with tonal, (key based) music, not modes.
- example: D Dorian comes from the C Major scale. You can play D Dorian over a Dm7 chord and your Dorian "flavor" is alive and well. As soon as you change chords, (any other chord in C Major) your modal "flavor" changes with it. Should you happen to land on the dominant, G7 your ear will begin to tell you that resolution to the C is coming, you're no longer in Dorian.
The easier way to preserve modal "flavor" is, as Miles Davis did with So What, use two minor seventh chords, (or m6th) that are not related within a key center: use Dm7 and Ebm7, (and the scales D Dorian and Eb Dorian).

-best,
Mike

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VikingBlues
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Re: Modes

Post by VikingBlues » Mon May 24, 2010 7:50 pm

Thanks mjo for taking the time for a detailed reply. :D

I have found some useful teaching advice from David Wallimann's YouTube and website videos which has increased my interest and understanding quite a lot in the last few days - coincidentally he has also posted some teaching videos on modes for the first time on JamPlay.com where I have a membership.

It has been a bit of a revelation to me how much easier it is to visualise modes by their relation to and inclusion of all the notes in the pentatonic scale. Maybe the books I have read mentioned this and I just didn't see it. :icon_whoknows:

I therefore "get" what you mean in your post about the modal flavour changing with the changing chords which shows how little I knew about it before (if I'd read your post a couple of weeks ago I'm not sure I would have understood). It now also makes sense to me that as well as playing G Dorian and F Dorian over DMi7 and FMi7 chords for example it's also possible to play G Dorian and G Phrygian in the same position to better facilitate more fluent phrasing, albeit while needing to be aware of the change in where the root notes etc have changed to.

Thanks for the advice on the mixolydian - I've been working my way through the minor modes and I'm about to start a proper look at the majors. I'll maybe end up trying to concentrate on one of each. I rather like the sound of the Aeolian of the minors in the BTs I've been learning with.

Modulation has been a complete mystery to me - I'm interested to see how much I can get the hang of it all. I think to some extent I'm just interested in getting my ears to be interested in more than just the standard pentatonic. :D

So much to learn - and so little time.
An improv a day keeps the demons at bay!

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