Gerd, I totally agree with you that blues can't be played from a chart.
I think 30 because that is about a full night of playing. (thirty was always what we tried to have in the pocket for a gig)
I know some world class jazz musicians (I used to date a VERY good jazz vocalist) and they use charts to get the structure, then improvise from there. They can show up, glance at the chart, then, improvise all over a song they have never heard. It's like blues taken to another level. Too cerebral for me. I like blues, it's more elemental and from the gut.

Last edited by Blind Boy (Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:58:52)

What Blind Boy said about Jazz - that's it's too cerebral  - is how I feel about it... or why I don't *feel* much of anything from it emotionally.

For a VERY short time (weeks) of the years I was at my last ex-company (right before the "boot"),  they FINALLY started up a full-time company band - which I had been yearning and asking for my whole time there, with their own rehearsal room available to them every day after work.  Of course I only got to go to the first rehearsal, and then my boss made sure I missed the rest of them by either making it impossible for me to leave my cube on time as I was always in the middle of an ridiculous deadline, or if I asked him about going, the answer was "no"). But I did get all the emails before the other rehearsals, and learned a lot from those, as well as the first rehearsal.  I was finally able, I thought, to go to one other rehearsal, but just as I was packing up my gear to go over to the rehearsal room, my boss came by, and told me to follow him, and that was the "get out of here" meeting, (just my luck) after which I had to leave the grounds.

The VAST  (~85%) of the musicians showing up at the first rehearsal were hard-core jazz lovers, and they all asked "where are the charts?" and said they couldn't play without having the music in front of them, not even a simple I-IV-V jam.  I really was shocked as I hadn't played with jazz guys before, as other than knowing what chords were in "unusual" (non I-IV-V) blues standards - ones like the more complex versions of Stormy Monday (which I'd put at the top of the "must know" list of blues to know - and at least they should be familiar with the more regular-blues version (I-IV-V) and also be able to play one or two of the more commonly used variations, such as the "Allman Brothers" version, which is more complex in terms of chords used, rhythm, structure, etc. Some of the variations of it can get pretty jazzy too (such as Eva Cassidy's version), and that song might be a good place to start, as they're used to complex songs and might feel the most comfortable with a song like that). A google search on "Stormy Monday" will give a lot of info on the history of the song, and the more famous versions and variations of it, usually most concisely in Wikipedia.

It was frustrating at the first rehearsal, when at the end we finally did play a couple of Blues jams and popular songs, and the jazz guys wouldn't even try or participate int those, looking bored and just talking among themselves, and a few just packed up and left then. So, there were me, another guitarist and the drummer playing, with the rest - bass, keyboards, etc. not taking part.  But the Jazz guys wouldn't even TRY to improvise to ANY song without the full chart in front of them - many of the guys wanted the standard jazz solos as well written as well, because they really couldn't improvise (as could Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker - jazz guys - when they were in CREAM with Clapton - a Blues guy).  One telling story is that Baker and Bruce said that the Blues WERE Jazz and that therefore EC was a jazz player, and EC completely disagreed (as do I) and said it was the reverse, that that he was a Blues player, not a Jazz Player, and he had to really stretch himself to keep up with the other two. So they ended up playing the first "fusion" Blues-Jazz music, which was and is fabulous stuff - and especially add in that 60's experimental (psychedelic) edge to it, and the feel that Clapton gives to anything he plays, and you've got music like none that had come before (and none, IMO, as *good* since in the realm of fusion).  CREAM really was one of a kind - a "happy accident" that changed music. 

But to me "pure" jazz was always an intellectual exercise more than a means of expressing yourself through music, as the Blues does (or should) - as does good classical (Beethoven, Mozart, Mahler) - and the12-tone atonal 20th century "music" turned me off the same way as jazz - I got no feeling from it - and felt it was just math played musical with instruments - which made getting through college for a music degree (as a music major in compositions) a challenge, especially in the early 70's, when atonal was still HOT, especially with the professors, as I stood my ground as to how I felt, and what I wanted to compose.  I tend to zone out and stop paying attention when jazz (or 12 tone music) is being played, but Blues grabs me by the heart and soul (and intellectually too, but that's not the focus) and I get totally taken away by it, and the best Blues can bring me to tears (as I've said when I saw EC and Steve Winwood in the first reunion at MSG on Feb 28, 2008 - the last of their 3 nights there - and Clapton's 7 minute solo in "Double Trouble" - longer and I think better than the one on the CD/DVD set that came out and perhaps too long for that set of discs - around the 5 minute mark he took it emotionally beyond anything I had heard before and beyond what I thought was possible.  At the time I was thinking those thoughts, it just HIT me so hard I couldn't control my emotions, and I could FEEL Eric's (and Otis Rush's - who wrote it) pain that the Blues is the ultimate form to use to  express and communicate to the audience.  I never felt the same about the Blues, or playing, again after that concert (or the one with EC and his band at MSG  about a year before when I was just about 6 months into learning the Blues myself).

I'm not sure a group of Jazz players can "get" that, but it's great, IMO, that they going to try, and I applaud what they're trying to do, and maybe we'll have some Blues converts after this "experiment" among the players !   BTW, I'd add "Double Trouble" to the list as well - it's another classic slow blues that they definitely should know.

Jim

I just saw the post before mine, and so I'll add :

2) Stormy Monday (2 versions if possible)

and

3) Double Trouble (Otis Rush - but have them listen to both Otis' and EC's versions of it, and other Blue's players too if they have time and access to them).


I just did a google search on "Stormy Monday"

This is what I got from typing in "Stormy Monday" in Google - and this was the first result and it was Wikipedia at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_It_St … st_as_Bad)

"Call It Stormy Monday (But Tuesday Is Just As Bad)," also known as "Call It Stormy Monday," or just "Stormy Monday," is a blues song written by T-Bone Walker and first recorded in 1947. Confusingly, it is also sometimes referred to as "Stormy Monday Blues," although that is the title of a 1942 song by Earl Hines and Billy Eckstine. Walker titled his song as he did to avoid the name collision.

The original recording appeared on Black & White Records, produced by Ralph Bass, and was one of Walker's breakthrough sides in pioneering the idiom of electric blues guitar. This recording also featured smoky trumpet work from sideman Teddy Buckner. It reached #5 on the R&B charts in 1948. B.B. King has said that "Call It Stormy Monday" inspired him to begin playing electric guitar.

Walker re-recorded the song with better fidelity and a somewhat different arrangement on his classic 1959 Atlantic Records album T-Bone Blues.
The song became a standard for blues and blues rock artists, and over the years was recorded by Albert King, Eva Cassidy, Question Mark and the Mysterians, Jethro Tull, Eric Clapton and others.
Trouble ensued when artists named it "Stormy Monday Blues", however, as for instance Bobby Bland did on a well-known rendition, as it was mis-credited and royalties went to the Hines-Eckstine song rather than Walker's. This may have also happened on some of the treatments that were just called "Stormy Monday".

The Allman Brothers Band included a live performance (as "Stormy Monday") on their album At Fillmore East in 1971. It garnered considerable airplay on progressive rock and album-oriented rock radio formats during the 1970s.

The 1988 Mike Figgis film Stormy Monday was named for the song, and includes B. B. King's performance of it over the opening credits.

Eva Cassidy's arrangement of the song.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … Monday.ogg

Structure

"Stormy Monday", although written in the key of A flat major, is usually performed in the key of G major, follows the structure of an altered 12-bar blues, using the following chord progression:

G9 | C9 | G9/A♭9 | G9 |
C9 | C9 | G9 / A minor7 | B minor7 / B♭ minor7 |
A minor7 | C minor7 | G9 / C9 | G9 / D augmented


The Allman Brothers instrumentation of the song is typical of the group, consisting of vocals, two guitars, bass guitar, organ, and drums. It demonstrates a different style of music, however, from most Allman Brothers pieces, with a very slow tempo and softer feel, running at only 60 beats per minute. Duane Allman's virtuosic guitar playing can be heard at this slower tempo, in the first of three solos, Gregg Allman's organ solo shifted to a jazz-waltz feel, Dickey Betts' guitar solo ending it, and with a careful tape edit a harmonica solo by Thom "Ace" Doucette omitted from the issued version.

The first two bars of The Allman Brothers Band's arrangement of "Stormy Monday"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … _intro.png

Jim

I wish the Jazz guys in that company band were willing to do "fusion" of Jazz with Blues, and try free improvisation, but they weren't.  They only wanted to play pure Jazz standards - the "order" was for everyone to get a copy of "The Real Book" which I had never heard of, but found out was jazz almost exclusively, and they asked for a list of suggestions of what to play in emails, and mostly it was Monk, Coltrane, etc. and I suggested "Stormy Monday" (even the jazzier versions) but there was no interest in that, or any improvisation as they weren't in the "real book" - and rather than improvising solos, they wanted to play other people's recorded "improv solos" note for note from charts. 

I know what they did play bored me to tears, and I tried to play along with them, even with the bizarre chords (many ugly sounding to me) that I'd never played before, and unusual notation, such as either a major 7th (I think) having the suffix "major 7th" written out in full, but the minor chords were abbreviated with some small symbol that I hadn't seen before  (- or ~ or just lowercase or something I've forgotten) and had no idea it meant minor, and so always was playing major chords when it should have been minor and - well it was a nightmare, plus I could not feel anything from the songs listening to them play them.  Lots of very complex chords, that seem to have been thrown in because they COULD be, rather than because that was the best way to express a feeling at that point (like often in some Blues substituting a II chord - which when it works is really nice and can add to the feeling).  But some augmented 13th, flatted 5th, with suspended something or other... no thanks.  No feeling except "WHY?" use that mass of notes that to me didn't convey anything to me about anything - same as with atonal classical music - an intellectual exercise.  All my blues or bluesy suggestions were struck off the list, as they weren't in the "Real book" (which someone had an "illegal" copy of for some reason and was sharing it with everyone else because that seems to be the way it's often done - why ???)

But, finally it was conceded, as a few other "rockers" and blues players began to want to join, that TWO bands were needed, a jazz and a rock/blues band, especially as they needed a band to play at the company Christmas party, and there the company wanted played well known rock/shuffles, etc that everyone could dance their heads off to and could sing along to, and eventually we could try "fusing" together on some songs at gigs and mixing as CREAM did.  But just as that was starting -- my employment there ENDED...

Jim

I also think that killing floor, have you ever loved a woman (although stormy monday could get away with that), texas flood and crossroads (both RJ and Cream) should be added.
It really depends on whether they want acoustic in there or not, if they want acoustic then they are gonna need more than 30 but electric you could probably get away with 10 basic progressions.

Last edited by roswellj (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:25:59)

1 (i'm your) Hoochie Coochie Man (a)  tradrr- b)  Williie Dixon c)  Muddy Waters)
2) Double Trouble (Jim s - JRV )
3) Sitting on Top of the World  (strummer07  Vinson & Chatmon, ...Mississippi Sheiks....Howling Wolf )
4) Double Trouble a) Jim S b) Eric Clapton
5) Killing Floor a) roswellj b) Howlin Wolf c) Albert King
6) Have You Ever Loved a Woman a) roswellj b) Derek and the Dominoes
7) Texas Flood a) roswellj b) SRV
8) Crossroads a) roswellj b) Robert Johnson c) Cream
9) Boom Boom a) Str07 b) John Lee Hooker c) JLH

1 (i'm your) Hoochie Coochie Man (a)  tradrr- b)  Williie Dixon c)  Muddy Waters)
2) Double Trouble (Jim s - JRV )
3) Sitting on Top of the World  (strummer07  Vinson & Chatmon, ...Mississippi Sheiks....Howling Wolf )
4) Double Trouble a) Jim S b) Eric Clapton
5) Killing Floor a) roswellj b) Howlin Wolf c) Albert King
6) Have You Ever Loved a Woman a) roswellj b) Derek and the Dominoes
7) Texas Flood a) roswellj b) SRV
8) Crossroads a) roswellj b) Robert Johnson c) Cream
9) Boom Boom a) Str07 b) John Lee Hooker c) JLH
10) The Thrill Is Gone a) Blind Boy b) BB King
11) Good Morning Little Schoolgirl a) Blind Boy b) Sonny Boy Williamson c) Junior Wells and Buddy Guy
12) Born Under a Bad Sign a) Blind Boy b) Albert King
13) All Your Love (I Miss Lovin') a) Blind Boy b) Otis Rush
14) Stormy Monday a) Jim S b) T-Bone Walker c) Allman Bros. Band
15) Red House a) tradrrr b) Jimi Hendrix
16) Mannish Boy a) tradrrr b) Muddy Waters

Well...here are my favorites

1) Hoochie Coochie man - Willie Dixon/ Muddy Waters - The BLUES song!
2)Wang Dang Doodle - Willie Dixon/ Howling Wolf/ Koko Taylor - Koko`s version with Buddy Guy on guitar is simply amazing.
3)I Can`t be Satisfied - Muddy Waters - Acoustic version is much better than the electric one, IMO
4)Mannish Boy - Muddy Waters / Bo Diddley
5)All your love - Otis Rush/ John Mayall BB with EC - Best version to me is the second one
6)Double Trouble - Otis Rush - My favorite blues song of all time
7)Before you accuse me - Bo Diddley/ EC
8)Love in Vain - Robert Johnson
9)Crossroads - Robert Johnson/ Cream
10)Hell Hound on my trail - Robert Johnson
11)Kind Hearted Woman - Robert Jonhson
12)Come on in my Kitchen - Robert Jonhson - "Can`t you hear the wind howl" is one of the best blues licks of all time, if not the best!
13) Ramblin on my mind - Robert Johnson - Did you guys hear the train?
14)Stormy Monday - T-Bone Walker/ Allman Brothers/ Cream 2005 Reunion version
15)Thrill is Gone - BB King
16)Rock me Baby - BB King
17)Chains and Things - BB King - Amazing track no one ever remembers it!
18) Blues Boy tune / All over again - BB King - Just beautiful!
19)Boom Boom - John Lee Hooker
20)Dust My Broom - Elmore James
21)Hard times killing floor - Skip James
22)Hide Away - Freddy King
23)Have you ever loved a woman? - Freddy King
24)Key to the Highway - Big Bill Broonzy/ EC 2001 version is the best to me!
25)Rollin n` Tumblin - Muddy Waters/ Cream
26)Born Under a Bad Sign - Albert King
27)As the years go passing by - Albert King
28)Hound Dog - Big Mama Thornton
29)Hard Times - Ray Charles/ EC
30)Driftin - Charles Brown/ EC with SW recently in Eb - Amazing!

Last edited by Uaala (Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:55:23)

Uaala, pick one or two and add it to the original list. Keep the train moving. And remember, its thirty most representative songs, not favorites.

1 (i'm your) Hoochie Coochie Man (a)  tradrr- b)  Williie Dixon c)  Muddy Waters)
2) Double Trouble (Jim s - JRV )
3) Sitting on Top of the World  (strummer07  Vinson & Chatmon, ...Mississippi Sheiks....Howling Wolf )
4) Double Trouble a) Jim S b) Eric Clapton
5) Killing Floor a) roswellj b) Howlin Wolf c) Albert King
6) Have You Ever Loved a Woman a) roswellj b) Derek and the Dominoes
7) Texas Flood a) roswellj b) SRV
8) Crossroads a) roswellj b) Robert Johnson c) Cream
9) Boom Boom a) Str07 b) John Lee Hooker c) JLH
10) The Thrill Is Gone a) Blind Boy b) BB King
11) Good Morning Little Schoolgirl a) Blind Boy b) Sonny Boy Williamson c) Junior Wells and Buddy Guy
12) Born Under a Bad Sign a) Blind Boy b) Albert King
13) All Your Love (I Miss Lovin') a) Blind Boy b) Otis Rush
14) Stormy Monday a) Jim S b) T-Bone Walker c) Allman Bros. Band
15) Red House a) tradrrr b) Jimi Hendrix
16) Mannish Boy a) tradrrr b) Muddy Waters
17) Born in Chicago a) majortom b)Nick Gravenites c) Paul Butterfield Blues Band
18) Love in Vain a) majortom b) Robert Johnson c) Rolling Stones
19) Come on in my kitchen a) Uaala b) Robert Johnson
20) Key to the Highway a) Uaala b)Big Bill Broonzy c)EC 2001 version
21) Damn Right, I've got the Blues a) tradrrr b) Buddy Guy

This is great! Thanks everyone.
How about...
1 (i'm your) Hoochie Coochie Man (a)  tradrr- b)  Williie Dixon c)  Muddy Waters)
2) Double Trouble a) Jim S b) Otis Rush c) Eric Clapton
3) Sitting on Top of the World  (strummer07  Vinson & Chatmon, ...Mississippi Sheiks....Howling Wolf )
4) Killing Floor a) roswellj b) Howlin Wolf c) Albert King
5) Have You Ever Loved a Woman a) roswellj b) Derek and the Dominoes
6) Texas Flood a) roswellj b) SRV
7) Crossroads a) roswellj b) Robert Johnson c) Cream
8) Boom Boom a) Str07 b) John Lee Hooker c) JLH
9) The Thrill Is Gone a) Blind Boy b) BB King
10) Good Morning Little Schoolgirl a) Blind Boy b) Sonny Boy Williamson c) Junior Wells and Buddy Guy
11) Born Under a Bad Sign a) Blind Boy b) Albert King
12) All Your Love (I Miss Lovin') a) Blind Boy b) Otis Rush
13) Stormy Monday a) Jim S b) T-Bone Walker c) Allman Bros. Band
14) Red House a) tradrrr b) Jimi Hendrix
15) Mannish Boy a) tradrrr b) Muddy Waters
16) Born in Chicago a) majortom b)Nick Gravenites c) Paul Butterfield Blues Band
17) Love in Vain a) majortom b) Robert Johnson c) Rolling Stones
18) Come on in my kitchen a) Uaala b) Robert Johnson
19) Key to the Highway a) Uaala b)Big Bill Broonzy c) Derek & The Dominoes d)EC 2001 version
20) Damn Right, I've got the Blues a) tradrrr b) Buddy Guy
21) Hide Away a) Uaala b) Freddy King c) John Mayall & BB with EC
22) Tore Down a) Blind Boy b) Freddy King c)Eric Clapton
23) Smokestack Lightning a) Blind Boy b) Howlin' Wolf c) nearly everybody

Once you get in that Blues pocket I feel you can play anything - the music itself takes over. However there are a couple of songs that I'd like to add to the mix:

Can't Be Satisfied (Muddy Waters)
Key To The Highway (many artists but writing credit often attributed to Big Bill Bronzy)
Mystery Train (Junior Parker, Elvis, Paul Butterfield Blues Band)

Chris -