DIY Drums

[VikingBlues]

MojoJim raised an interesting topic in the introductory thread from DeepDrummer.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1323
That topic being:-
You touched on a number of interesting topics. What notation software are you working with? Some of us have worked with various programs so that we could exchange ideas. Few programs support blues guitar very well - and none seem to be able to create a credible playback.

Some of us have tried linking drum machines into our DAWs. In my case, I don't know what blues drumming is supposed to sound like - so I will be very interested to hear some of your recordings.

I too have found the drum machine to be a problem - first in it sounding artificial, second in the lack of coverage of blues styles, third in my inability to grasp the concepts of programming the damn thing. It was even a struggle to get it to play back drums only with no bass on it's built in programs - you'd have thought being a drum machine it would be an obvious menu choice.

I then got a copy of GuitarPro 6 - won it (in a competition involving no skill at all!). I got interested enough to visit some websites on drumming, read up on some basic blues drum patterns. Tried to translate this into a GP6 playback ......
download/file.php?id=1510
You will note it is less than perfect ... in fact it's much worse than any drum machine. Not a credible playback - far removed from incredible other than being incredibly bad.
FWIW I have attached a PDF of the pattern I used below. I think I'm still at the skill level of the cave man banging his rock on the cave wall when he's wanting to write War and Peace.

It would be interesting to share views. Good websites ... good programs ... suggestions from someone who knows more about drumming than me (that's anyone else on the planet basically) ... how to make GP6 files sound more natural ... etc
.........................................................................................

On the PDF file - anyone unsure of what the symbols mean:-
Middle line of stave - what would be the note B = snare
Note that would be F = Bass Drum
Note that would be C = 2nd Tom (Mid Tom)
X on the G note just above the stave - Hi-Hat
X on the A note above the stave - Ride Cymbal
X on the B note above the stave - Crash Cymbal

Other things I could have use:-
Note that would be E at the top of the stave = 1st Tom (High Tom)
Note that would be A = 3rd Tom (Low Tom)
Note that would be C below the stave = 2nd bass drum
X on the D note on the stave = Cross stick
Diamond on the F at the top of the stave = cowbell
X on the D below the stave = Hi-Hat with foot
There also appear to be open and closed high hat variations though I'm not sure how GP6 does these.

[MichaelRobinson]

Sorry to say but it don't sound like real drums at all. It's easy to hear that's a computer how do the drumming

[VikingBlues]

Sorry to say but it don't sound like real drums at all. It's easy to hear that's a computer how do the drumming

Exactly. Incredibly bad isn't it!

And there seems to be so few drums only backing tracks of a blues style on the internet. So if you want to create your own rhythm, chord voicings and bass you're stuffed if you want drums.

There's supposed to be something on GP6 that supposed to make the timing sound more natural but it doesn't seem to do anything for my ears. Possibly I'm not doing it right of course.

It's all very frustrating!

[MichaelRobinson]

I think you do It right. A machine can never repalace a human. Never ever.

[ElMano]

I have build my self a Cajon, to get me a drum sound on the backing. Oke you don't have the crashes but the drum rythme and sound ar exact what you need. To hold the correct rhythm and timing you can use a metronome on Internet ore the headphone with the right song ore a BT, Recording with the,mic into the box and it works wel for me. Building is easy if yo let do the sawing at the DIY shop.
Much more fun and a lot cheaper than a drum computer (btw you can all so use a acoustic guitar body to try out) An other way of making rythme is a sheet of paper between the strings of an acoustic guitar and strumming. Jhonny cash did it once on a recording session because the drummer wont showing up.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Xi9ke2D2o

Some building plans and idea's

http://www.davidbruce.net/building_cajon.pdf
http://caseyconnor.org/jl/cajon
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-a-cajon/

[VikingBlues]

Very interesting post ElMano - many thanks. I'll admit it is very intriguing.

I do have one of those foot stomp box things with a mic in it, but this seems rather more interesting and versatile.

Cheers - I'll need to look at in detail when I have time!

[MojoJim]

VB, that's interesting that you did the drumming in GP6. I have a copy of GP6 as well but I'm still learning about it.

We've kind of got two topics started here: 1) Notation software, and, 2) Drum machine technologies.

I've been working with Strummer and Golfxz on our collaborations and we have explored both of those topics to a degree.

We exchange tabs using PowerTab Editor. It's free and easy to use - but it hasn't been supported in years so it has limitations.
I tried a package from Finale - but it didn't have good support for guitar tab.
I've got GP6 now and that looks like a good deal. But playback still doesn't sound much like a guitar - even after buying a package of extra sounds.

We spent some time trying to get a drum track for our collabs. We tried various VST plugins to our DAW including Session Drummer 2, Cakewalk TTS-1 drums, Studio Instruments drums and EZ Drummer. Most of these were either free or came packaged with the DAW. They all have different (and non-intuitive) interfaces - very hard to use comfortably.

Strummer (who will return from holiday in a couple of days and will probably join this topic) bought an Alesis drum machine and did the basic drum track we used in our Love In Vain collab.

None of us has a drumming background so we didn't know what to do after we got the software working. I'm sure that one of us will learn a little drumming at some point. But there are so many topics to study when learning music that you can only allocate a certain amount of time to each - and then it's time to study something else.

This is an interesting topic. I'd like to hear more experiences, advice, tips and tricks.

[DeepDrummer]

I'll post a One of my Sibelius files I created for drums that I often draw from. It's not in a song format but bar for bar that I copy and paste from on occasion. I think I made a legend somewhere as well. Have a listen. I can't play it all or even near all but it goes good for the ones I can and playback is not too shabby. Just think of it as one bar at a time or 2,4,8,12,16.32 depending. You'll know. If you need something specific we should be able to work something. And no, I don't charge anything but I won't allow it to take over my life either. I have a lot of time now adays at least until I find a job (i'm not looking real hard).
Let me know. oops exporting converting ....coming right up.

[DeepDrummer]

I tried to post it. Nothing note for note was copywrited but.....end of story.

[DeepDrummer]

legend.pdf

drum kit legend

(21.96 KiB) Downloaded 437 times

44grooves.pdf

pdf of piles of sample beats

(368.42 KiB) Downloaded 513 times

Here are the pdfs (hopefully). I'll have to pare down the 20 Meg MP3 that could have gone with it but it will give you ideas. It is generally one bar of the basic and then a fill like what you might hear in the 4th, 8th or 12th or 16th bar.

[DeepDrummer]

I think this is one of my latest things I put together from stuff I learned and was taught by this person and that just to show a possible 12 bar pattern. Generally Blues is a simpler pattern but we'll get into that if need be. The one I tried to post turned out to be 20 meg and I got bumped for trying no doubt automatically. oops so this one is 5 meg of the same 12 bars basically at 100 bpm in 4/4 time.
Check the sounds on this.
download/file.php?id=1526

Which looks like this:

drum example.pdf

upbeat blues perhaps

(67.4 KiB) Downloaded 405 times

The possibilities are endless.
Ok enough about drums. Can I have my guitar back now? LOL.

[MojoJim]

DD - thanks for posting the drumming. I'm going to take it to heart and study it - but my understanding of drumming (and my skills) are currently at the level of:

whack - whack - thump - whack - whack - thump.

A stick and a rock for a kit would serve me well.

I suspect it's one of those skills - like playing the bass - that I'll have time to get serious about some day.
Just as soon as I master playing blues guitar.

There are so many fun things that I want to study and work on that time becomes the problem. I could play guitar all day - but I think my wife would be unhappy with that.

It's good to know that we have a resource like yourself on the forum.

[DeepDrummer]

Sorry MojoJim. That one is real tricky. I just wanted to show the actual sound quality. I looked for old tunes with the simplist of beats specifically designed for blues but when I got this version of the software, I deleted everything I wrote before 2011 pretty much. I'll definitely have to organise my files better. I know they are there somewhere but if not I'll have to rewrite them anyway. There were a lot of errors in the other parts back then especially guitar and once I started learning more I was embarrassed.
I'd sound out a basic blues beat in 4/4 like Boom - chick-Boom Boom chick. I like to keep a hi hat pulse going on the beat foot operated which I notice a lot of better drummers do and my former instructor advised me that it gives the other band members something to watch to keep time to. Straight eighth notes on my other hi hat (closed) or the ride cymbal. Back beat on the snare on 2 and 4 and the bass on 1 and on the 3 and on the and of 3. That would be my minimum and one could add or subtract from that. Perhaps a fill every 4th bar or not to be quite so busy a bit of a fill in bar 12 can go nice too. No instrument is hard to play but every instrument is hard to play well. Even drums. I've tried most instruments and it seems to hold pretty true.

[VikingBlues]

Many thanks for the pdf file. I don't have any time to look at it properly at the moment - just about to go off to a day at the salt-mines. Any information I can get that might help my understanding is very useful.

but my understanding of drumming (and my skills) are currently at the level of:

whack - whack - thump - whack - whack - thump.

The way my drum programming skills go my level is
whack - whack - thump - whack - .................
Ooops - sorry dropped the stick!
- whack - thump.

Liked the sound file - there's some apparent subtleties in the way the sound is done which makes it sound more like a person is playing rather than a computer.

[DeepDrummer]

The beauty of the notation program is that you can put in accents and ghost notes (soft notes) easily as well as crescendos (gradual increase in volume) and decrescendos (softer) and you can spread the length of time it takes to gradually go from loud to soft so with a bit of tweaking one can get a more human sound out of it. I'm not sure if drum machines and such can do this but they probably can if the right methods are used. I have no experience in that area however so I am unsure. I have to spend some time in the guitar area for all the little nuances that the blues can give in that respect. It is all supposed to be possible. I'll get it figured out soon enough. For now it's easier to just pick up the guitar and do it to taste while following the somewhat bland playback of the guitar as a guide only.

[DeepDrummer]

I think this is a fairly simple example of me following a 12 bar pattern I wrote in. A bit busy for blues but watch the left hand high hat and listen to the bass and snare in the main beat section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=7WJHes6qmK0

[Strummer07]

As someone who can't drum , and does not read Drum tab , nor understand fully what drum is supposed to be hit on what beat the whole businesss is a real conundrum to me. It all seems so simple .. You bang a bit of pipe or a box in time ..Job Done ! ....or not !! as the case maybe !!

In a quest to start to move away from the limitations of standard BT's and try to create my own, using a simple drum beat, guitar etc ... the drumming has been to toughest bit to crack.
I bought an Alesis SR-18 Drum machine off e-bay .. and after a fair bit of playing about have managed to get some half decent steady drum beat sounds going.
I know its not a "real" drummer and its all synthesised .....but as so many records these days use programmed drums I don't think it matters so much. Anyway , its the only option I have tbh.

Its still very much a work in progress, and I need to find some way of learning about how to create an effective blues rhythm, what goes on what beat .. I think in a seperate thread Deep D talks about a Boom Chk rhtyhm with high hat on 8th or 16th beats per bar. That sort of thing is helpful in crerating ones own track.
The Alesis SR-18 ...is an Ok bit of kit, It seemed about the best of the bunch in my price range , over 100 different preset drum sounds covering Rock , ballards , Blues and techno, pads to create your own stuff and goodness knows how many different drum sets one can choose from. Bass guitar comes with it and you can easily trigger that on/off. and easy enough to create short "fills" to change from one pattern to another. Its not perfect - but ( with patience) it'll get me there... or thereabouts !!.. and I think the whole thing sounds not so bad ....Ok its not "Human" .. but I couldn't care less about that ...

If your after a steady beat to go behind a track, nothing too flash ( I'm not after a Ginger Baker 16 minute "Toad" drum solo !!! ) ..it seems an OK way to go .....I think it all delends on your profficiency & patience with these things .... I want to play a guitar ... not faff around with programming and pads, so for me it has to be moderaly simple and not to time consuming .....I also want to break out of standard BT's.

Blackhorse, who posts on here seems, real good with programming drums, which he seems to do in "Fruity loops" ( I think)

So its horses for couses as they say !! but any tips about creating effective Blues Rhythms , what should be hit on what beat ?? .. would be helpful !

[DeepDrummer]

It really depends on the progression and tempo and time signature I.E 3 beats or 4 beats in a bar which can be often determined by listening to the chord changes although as things get more and more complicated this becomes harder to identify. All the added nuances make it harder to determine how to write it. I generally write the chord progression from start to end first and then add the drum beat to suit the music. (And yes I play real drums too, not just computer generated). The easiest way to start is to start with only the snare and bass or even just the bass. Watch my right leg in the video to see where that bass could be placed in the simplest of beats. A snare and bass alone can work or a hi hat as well so ignore all my flailing around. If you were tapping your foot in time, I like to place the hi hat closing on that same beat. on 1 and 2 and 3 and 4. The bass can be placed on 1 and on 3 but in blues often every second set of 4 counts where you might tap your foot where the bass would be hit on 3 is often doubled up with 2 hits of the bass drum starting on 3 and finished by 4. Watching the drummers playing blues will show you what I mean. I'll put together a short video now to show what I mean. (since my amp is out for repair) *sigh* It is far easier to make the beat match the music than to make the music match the beat. Using the high hat on the beat frees up the snare for other things and as well, the muscians can watch the hi hat open and close and listen to the Bass on beat 1 to keep in time. One could download a lot of drum loops before one of those actually might match your song.

[DeepDrummer]

Ok so here is an example of what I am saying. Watch the hi hat on the left and count by that 1,2,3,4. Then watch my right hand on the other hat or ride cymbal and count that out 1,+,2,+3,+4 (one and two and (and so on)
watch the snare as you are counting which comes in on 2 and 4
Then watch my right leg and listen to the bass on 1 and on the 3 and the and of 3.
It's a very basic beat but 50% of the songs in the world have that within the drummers beat somewhere. (maybe a bit of stretch there). I know my drums sound aweful. This is not a backing track as of yet. I haven't tuned my drums since I brought home my new guitar and amp in July and got the guitar bug again. It also takes quite a while to set up to do a video and the camera doesn't do it justice. (one kid or another keeps messing with my mixer). Let's see what other excuses I can think of. Only 1/2 coffee this morning? LOL.
Anyway. I'll upload it in a song and stuff (computer generated as I am still writing it). I should be able to play it on all the instruments except for the guitar lead which has been left out for now. I was hoping to do that this week but I am now ampless (crying). Well I have a small one I can use but I miss my usb out from the amp to the computer. I'll probably just improvise on the guitar part since blues lead is very difficult to write and playback properly with the computer. Check this out for now and watch for more in a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnpkRVU6Ioo
I haven't figured out how to do a proper youtube link on here yet but that will get you to the video. Enjoy (not likely as it sounds aweful but just to show one (of many) basic possibilities)

[DeepDrummer]

This mp3 (compouter playback of the score) should follow that live example perfectly (although the drumming was far from perfect and the sound was bad (the camera adds a buzz to the mix. I generally pipe them to the computer from the mixer and it takes a lot to switch things back and forth.
download/file.php?id=1532

Here is a PDF of the whole score. I played guitar along to it yesterday and it was the saddest most melancholy tune I ever heard. The score also follows my video example beat for beat except for those times when I ruined by trying to add to it.
Remember watch the left foot for the count on the beat and the right hand for the beat and the ands between the beat. Your peripheral vision will automatically pickup the bass right leg and the snare and if you are counting 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 like the right hand you'll see a pretty good example of one possible beat to start with. Hope that helps.

2nd try on November 29 2011.pdf

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