MIDI, VSTs, Plugins

[VikingBlues]

Now I have a computer that has an O/S and processing power that can cope with VSTs plugins, MIDI etc, and being on a two week break at home I have some time to look at getting somewhere with using these. Make a chance from wrestling with the usual guitar problems.

NOTE - on the 3 links I've made I seem to be having trouble with Box.net in Firefox but they work fine in Internet Explorer.
You'll hear my lack of skills / recent practice on the music keyboard!

As I don't have any MIDI software specifically related to guitar I've been first trying to get to grips with some VST instruments that came with the DAW and getting them to record. Yesterday I'd been trying out an analog 12 voice synthesiser, and a String ensemble VST. I have a (very) basic 2 octave Akai LPK25 USB MIDI keyboard and no skill at playing a keyboard - not ideal! BUT ... I managed to sort out enough to be able to record three tracks with two different string ensemble voices and another voice from the analog synth. Doesn't sound like much but I'm quite surprised (and pleased to have managed even that).
Sample - only a minute long - https://www.box.com/s/89va202ayybp6jq1l9b7
I do like the string ensemble voices - very convincing and rich in sound - but they came with the DAW.

Encouraged by this, and thinking more of guitar stuff, I tried downloading the FreeAmp 3 Full plug in which was mentioned in another forum by a member running the Reaper DAW. Much better results than with the built in amp sims in my DAW - FreeAmp 3 Full seems to be an amp sim where the amp reacts more realistically to changes in picking strength.
A simple sample, just the guitar on its own, about a minute long - https://www.box.com/s/4b47f146wdmez0n6s8bq
Then I also got reasonable results with SimulAnalog Guitar suite. HOWEVER - it has to be admitted when I tried the same FreeAmp 3 amp sim late last night for an improv track with a BT it seemed less impressive. Switching to DI from the G-Dec3 (not my favourite recording method) was a big improvement. So more investigation needed on the VST front to be convinced an amp sim can do the job I want.

I also looked at my GR20 Guitar Synth Manual and rapidly decided it's way more complicated to set that up to send MIDI to the PC DAW VST software - made my brain hurt - I'm lacking MIDI cables anyway at present.

I searched around for some free VSTs and was amazed to find that I could get them to work. Changed days from the laptop and Vista and the sullen silence from the DAW when asked to use a VST. So - downloaded and all worked OK first time I had 3 VST synths (STS21 free, STS33 free, and AlienSpaceWeaver) + DVS Saxaphone and Ixox Flute. Not so convinced about the sax and flute, but the AlienSpaceWeaver was fascinating. It falls into the category of atmospheric soundscapes and can pretty much produce a "spacey" soundscape on it's own with the occasional keyboard note from the user.
Like in this - https://www.box.com/s/vje236ea89h8hvbh9w5v - the first 15 seconds or so involved pressing 3 keys down on the keyboard! Felt I had to bring in that string ensemble again - love the sound it makes.

If anyone has recommendations / useful info on amp sims and VSTs I'd be most grateful. I've had my attention alerted elsewhere to a 5 part set of lessons on MIDI that were in Sound on Sound music tech magazine. That'll hopefully help with my lack of understanding of the GR20 MIDI set up. If anyone is interested I can post the links to the articles here on the thread.

[vancouverois]

About amp et cabinet convolution, apparently they are free of charge plug ins for most sequencers (Win, Mac & Linux)
http://www.premierguitar.com/magazine/I ... onses.aspx

[VikingBlues]

About amp et cabinet convolution, apparently they are free of charge plug ins for most sequencers (Win, Mac & Linux)
http://www.premierguitar.com/magazine/I ... onses.aspx

Thanks for the link.

Link to FreeAmp 3 Full (and some other guitar based plugins) if it's of interest to anyone.
http://rekkerd.org/fretted-synth/

[VikingBlues]

I've been wrestling with Plugins. With more success than I've ever had before ... but still only about 75% success rate in getting the Plugins .dll files being recognised by the DAW - even after rescanning the VST folder. But I'm using free VSTs so shouldn't expect as high a standard as paid for software.

Here's a go at guitar direct into PC through the Alesis iO2 interface with all the modelling of my guitars amp, reverb and delay done live as I played using plugins on the DAW software.

download/file.php?id=2509

It's the PRS SE for the improv using an amp VST called igniteamps NRR-1, and adding reverb and delay. I guess the genre would be ... dunno ... ambient jazzy? David Wallimann BT "Ionian Lydian Secrets" from the GuitarPlayback.com site.

The amp VST is described on the makers website thus:-
"NRR-1 is a digital emulation of a three channels tube preamplifier for guitar. It has been developed to accurately model its real hardware counterpart, built for Fleshgod Apocalypse guitarist Cristiano Trionfera by Ignite Amps, back in 2009.
The NRR-1 core circuit is mainly based on a famous boutique preamplifier made in '88, modded to suit Cristiano's needs in the best possible way."
Their web-site is here - http://www.igniteamps.com/audio-plug-ins

I had never heard of Fleshgod Apocalypse - a quick visit to YouTube suggests they're not my cup of tea!

You will not be surprised to hear I was using the clean channel - though with some gain added on the controls.

I am rather pleasantly surprised by these results though. Though with the amp sims I have tried so far I'm not too positive that I'll be able to get good bluesy tube amp tones ... no change there then!

[MichaelRobinson]

You've done it again. Very floating and melodiously. I like the song.............

[VikingBlues]

Thank you MR - appreciate the comments and thanks for listening.

I am getting uneasy about how difficult I find it to come up with bluesier recordings that have anything much to say. While with something like this recording I'd only heard the backing track for the first time 10 minutes before recording this - this sort of melodic ambient/jazzy/poppy/rockish stuff just seems to fit my ability and personality best and the lead line flows more easily. Odd - because I don't really listen to this sort of stuff (this recording almost veers towards some sort of sub-standard Nicks/Buckingham era Fleetwood Mac sound), but I do listen to a lot of blues. Unfair he cried!

[12bar]

That's it - this setting fits your style perfectly, if you want it or not.
Fluid, sweet phrasing, a pleasure to listen!

[vancouverois]

A good one VB!

I've tried to get some VST plugins working in Audition but I have too much latency when it's not pops and crackles
BTW, it reminds me the Line6 issues with Win7 drivers, same noises

I have upgraded the Asio drivers, tried the buffer values but no luck of having the VST working with an acceptable latency.
It's a pity, I tried a convolution reverb setting that was almost working good and VST impressed me, very nice almost heavenly reverb.
Lets say it was embedded with Audition, it may be not a real third party plugin like Freeamp or NRR1.

The positive thing is that I can now used Audition with the Asio4all driver on my USB soundcard.
I had some glitches with the previous Asio driver.

So a lot of latency, although the memory and CPUs are not overhelmed. I guess the sound card is too limited and cannot be properly
reliable being used this way. May be a Mac sounds like a solution though it's kind of pricey and I'm a bit reluctant to Jobs/Apple
marketing tricks and customer consideration.

[VikingBlues]

Cheers guys! Glad to get feedback that means I'm not just deluding myself

Unlike minor key which usually works OK for me I do find the major key a bit hit and miss with a backing track - with some I just keep getting the note choice wrong, but others work with no problem. Must depend on the chord progressions or something. This BT is not just a major key but is Lydian - a mode that I've hardly used at all.

That's it - this setting fits your style perfectly, if you want it or not. :

I think that's good advice. I should go with the flow.

I've tried to get some VST plugins working in Audition but I have too much latency when it's not pops and crackles
BTW, it reminds me the Line6 issues with Win7 drivers, same noises

I have upgraded the Asio drivers, tried the buffer values but no luck of having the VST working with an acceptable latency.
It's a pity, I tried a convolution reverb setting that was almost working good and VST impressed me, very nice almost heavenly reverb.
Lets say it was embedded with Audition, it may be not a real third party plugin like Freeamp or NRR1.

The positive thing is that I can now used Audition with the Asio4all driver on my USB soundcard.
I had some glitches with the previous Asio driver.

So a lot of latency, although the memory and CPUs are not overhelmed. I guess the sound card is too limited and cannot be properly
reliable being used this way. May be a Mac sounds like a solution though it's kind of pricey and I'm a bit reluctant to Jobs/Apple
marketing tricks and customer consideration.

I can really identify with your last sentence about a Mac - I did seriously wonder about one myself when I was thinking about the last upgrade. My better half runs a Mac and it has given her hardly a problem over the last 3 or 4 years while I've had so many issues wrestling with PC/Windows. In the end I couldn't justify the cost for what is just a hobby - plus it's a whole new operating system to learn, and I'm getting too old for that! The cost/hobby thing also ruled out a specialist audio set up PC which would have been similar cost to a Mac, but probably indicates the amount a lot of people are prepared to pay to avoid the morass of windows problems when doing audio work on a standard set up PC.

I can alo idintify with your frustrations in getting computer recording processes to behave.

I decided against the soundcard route with the new PC - internal OR external - when I upgraded from my laptop Vista to the Desktop Win7 PC a few months back. I've just got on-board sound for general use and I thought I'd try the USB interface route first for my ausio recordings to see if that worked. I was lucky, and haven't had to resort to the soundcard route. The interface I use is a fairly cheap one - Alesis iO2 - and it runs with an ASIO4All driver. Magix Samplitude 16, Sony Acid Music Studio 8.0 and Samplitude Music Studio 2013 have all installed and run first time with no problems on default settings using the interface. None of the half a dozen or so DAWs I tried on the laptop worked first time on default settings, and a couple I could never get to work at all.

I still have strong memories of the pops and crackles and strange screeching noises that would litter recording attempts in the past when I was struggling with getting setups to work on audio recording. Hugely frustrating and resulted in a few attempts to try stand alone digital recorders - which turned out to be less problematic but nowhere near as easy to use or as flexible or fully featured as a computer DAW.

Really seems a bit of a lottery with audio recording gear and software on computers - look up almost any set of reviews on Amazon for a product and there's likely a range of 5 star reviews (those who were lucky and everything worked) and 1 star reviews (those who were unlucky and have a combination of gear and settings that don't work). Like my Alesis - quick look at Amazon UK shows the whole range with a pretty even spread across 1 through to 5 stars. There's two reviews next to each other - one says about the "huge amount of latency", the other says "absolute minimal latency". I would agree with the person that mentions the iO2 preamps being less than perfect, which is why I invested in an ArtTube preamp to go in the chain going into the Alesis.

The number of things that go on in the background on a computer that take processing power and resources away from the audio software do not help at all.

It's all just a tangled web.

I'm just keeping the fingers crossed that my system continues to behave.

Onwards and upwards .... more VST plugins to try out and explore.

[vancouverois]

Just another thing, I remember I didn't have any problems with Win XP and the Line6 Guitarport.
Unfortunately I didn't use VST when I had XP, but I could record through USB with the default settings.
No buffers to check, no ASIO, no need to score the latest USB driver from the manufacturer and on the topmost no latency.

When it came to WIn7, the Guitarport started to act funny and also started to have latency issues.
On a family use worstation with Vista, problems with the sound too and this was not used for music recording.
I don't, or can't, believe that a modern OS is unable to handle this kind of task.
Old Ataris and Commodores were used for music, their processors were quite slow, the technology back then was not today's one.

Should I go back to XP for music recording?

[12bar]

BTW, it reminds me the Line6 issues with Win7 drivers, same noises

Oh, YES. Line6 and updates...

The gearbox was great, after Win7 came out it was discontinued, including the online source for settings. Still no working line6 driver.

[VikingBlues]

It's a pain with using computer technology for music recording.

You have a system that works - somehow hardware / interface / software / operating system all work together the way they ought to. Then the computer hits the end of its useful life. It's unlikely that new computers will at that point be using the same operating system.

The choice is go for the new operating system and risk your recording set up no longer being workable. Or try and get a PC still with the old operating system and then find you can't get new gear coming out because it's not compatible with older operating systems. Built in obsolescence.

I took the route (risk) of a new O/S when I went from Windows XP to Vista .... disaster area for my existing set up and for a high % of things I tried for a new recording set up too. Particularly annoying when a hardware / software manufacturer doesn't produce an update for compatibility. But it's also a shame the way updated operating systems so often seem designed to make things as difficult as possible for running old gear and software.

I've been lucky with the same route this time of a new O/S. But I do find it interesting that I saw very little evidence of Vista being used as the O/S for specialist audio recording PCs. They used to be mainly Win XP, now they are mainly Win7. Certainly the advice I got recently from a maker of such specialised audio systems was to avoid Vista and Win8 at all costs.

Just another thing, I remember I didn't have any problems with Win XP and the Line6 Guitarport.
Unfortunately I didn't use VST when I had XP, but I could record through USB with the default settings.
No buffers to check, no ASIO, no need to score the latest USB driver from the manufacturer and on the topmost no latency.

Very similar to myself with XP - no need to fiddle with or even check settings and I also used some Line 6 stuff that became unusable in the switch to Vista. I never tried VSTs in XP either so I've no idea how well they might have worked.

I don't, or can't, believe that a modern OS is unable to handle this kind of task.
Old Ataris and Commodores were used for music, their processors were quite slow, the technology back then was not today's one.

The plus for these old systems were that the hardware was just able to concentrate on the one job in hand. I'm horrified at the amount of processes that are going on when looking at Task Manager ... 73 listed just now and that's despite how I've tried to avoid background stuff in this new set up.

Should I go back to XP for music recording?

Big question!! No answer to it from me I'm afraid. It does seem that two people can get very similar systems but that just one difference in components or set up can make audio recording easy on one PC and impossible on the other.

......................

UPDATE:
Had one oddity where all my DAWs stopped doing playback of sound, but playback of Windows own sounds was still happening. A reboot of the computer fixed it, but an oddity.

I'm finding that the need to have a new track actually recording to get the VST amp working while listening to the backing track is a bit irritating. If I just play back the backing track / existing tracks on the DAW all I hear of the guitar I'm playing is the unprocessed signal - even if the recording is armed on the new track.

I tracked down another VST free amp - "Guitar Amp 2.0 Free" from Plektron at this site - http://www.dlware.com/software/129298-p ... 0-r2r.html

I had a go with the same backing track as yesterday - result is not as good musically for my playing, but the sound quality is fine again. BUT .... Still having trouble finding any of these plugins that can do a good low crunch blues though.
I've put this new try on box.net - don't want to clutter up the 12bat server with this one. https://www.box.com/s/xlam9xu2t17rflzzqut7

[VikingBlues]

Apparently the following applies to windoze computer systems and audio!

..................................................

The audio latency problem

Windows is not a real-time operating system. All requests to the operating system are delivered on a best effort basis. There are no guarantees whatsoever that requests are delivered within a certain time frame, which are the characteristics of a real-time operating system. That is not a problem for most devices and tasks but this is bad news for audio applications (which are considered soft real-time) because they need to deliver data to the subsystem and the hardware in buffers several times per second. If one or more buffers miss their deadlines and are not delivered in time it has audible consequences which are recognized as dropouts, clicks and pops.

..................................................

Which explains a lot of our problems.

[12bar]

Windows is not a real-time operating system.

That's true - but also for MacOS and most other operating systems. Usually Windows 7 can do audio good enough, it's the software, drivers and the settings that need to be optimized.

http://www.native-instruments.com/knowl ... Processing
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/a ... sician.htm

[vancouverois]

A nice site about music processing:
http://tweakheadz.com/

Mac vs PC in music recording:
http://tweakheadz.com/what-type-of-comp ... mac-or-pc/
Scroll down at the bottom of this page to check out some DAW and sequencers reviews.

[VikingBlues]

Good links there guys.

The need to try to evaluate the benefits / drawbacks of the high cost of Macs v the need to troubleshoot and configure PCs rang loud bells in my memory from my own decision making process. Though the article did not mention that going with an audio specialist for a PC to avoid all that troubleshooting / configuration brings a PC cost up to around Mac levels. Coincidence???

I have used some of the advice around about optimising Windows 7 for audio recordings, though having said that it was already working OK for my DAW recording before I did that. I remember I tried similar configuration adjustments in Vista on the old laptop but it made no difference at all!

Am still not having 100% with the .dll files in the VST folder though. Not all are picked up by the DAW even after rescanning the folder. This does not encourage me to buy any software because all I see online suggests that the support from these software vendors is pretty lousy. Even when teh VST is free it's irritating to say the least to spend the time searching and researching and then downloading only to find that the plugin doesn't plug in!

Had some "fun" with I K Multimedia! I had a Custom Shop version of Amplitube plus Sample Tank and T-Racks Custom shop as a special deal freebie some time ago - couldn't get anywhere with them on the old Vista / laptop system. They were still in my I.K. Account and still downloadable so I thought I'd give them a try. The programs install but the Authorization Manager doesn't ... and without that I just get just 10 days use from the programs. A warning comes up from AVG when it gets to the point installing the Authorization Manager with any of these software packages. I allow it through, but Authorization Manager refuses to continue installing at that point. So I go back to reinstall one of the programs, then the Authorization Manager seems to install OK too with no AVG messages kicking in. So I open up one of the programs and it says that Authorization Manager is needed but isn't properly installed. Piece of crap! So all the I.K. stuff is un-installed and I certainly won't be getting full versions from them. Or anything they (or anyone else) make with Authorization Managers or DRM etc. Every program I've had with these things attached has been a real pain.

I'm also to be honest not gaining a great deal from the wider range of sounds available from using VST sim software - the over-driven sounds are, by and large, revolting, and generally the basic amp sound on it's own does not work unless reverb and delay are brought in, even in a lot of cases where cab sims are also in place with the amp.

So maybe not a huge amount to be gained from following this route much further for the amp / fx plugins. Then the use of MIDI and keyboard for the synth side of things is hampered by my lack of physical skill at playing keyboard and my lack of knowledge of theory and composition. Maybe starting to fizzle out ... but at least it's given me something different to look at in my break from work.

[VikingBlues]

Then the use of MIDI and keyboard for the synth side of things is hampered by my lack of physical skill at playing keyboard and my lack of knowledge of theory and composition. Maybe starting to fizzle out ... but at least it's given me something different to look at in my break from work.

Despite those lack of skills (and a shaky sense of rhythm) I've found myself going back and tinkering with the synth type MIDI stuff again. Because it's fun.

Here's a sort of cinematic soundtracky soundscape sort of thing - "Waiting" and "The Gates of Hell" - just 4 minutes total fortunately. Two pieces linked by mood and a common key signature. The only real guitar is in the second half - the classical guitar sound in the first half ("Waiting") is a synth. The real guitar in the second half is "ugly" in sound (NOT traditional smooth VB at all), but has to be as it's the "The Gates of Hell" section.

https://soundcloud.com/vikingblues/wait ... es-of-hell

[vancouverois]

Very nice! I listened to it a couple of times and I really enjoy the progression.
So everything was done with the guitar synth?
Really nice piece of music you've done and very nice tone when the "nasty" guitar introduces itself
Quite impressive to think about instruments and sounds you can emulate/play, it's a whole new world accessible from 6 strings.

[VikingBlues]

Glad to hear you enjoyed my little experiment.

Sorry I've lacked a bit of clarity VC - all the sounds except the "nasty" guitar were produced with a mini keyboard controller and VSTi Plugins. Hence my comments about lack of keyboard skills. The "nasty" guitar was real guitar into the DAW and using the DAWs own sims for amp / fx.

I did consider using the guitar synth (and really must try and use it more) but I have to admit the quality of sound from VSTi synths tends to be better and ....

... the advantage in this instance of the keyboard v guitar synth route was that I could use on the first track a VSTi synth with a voicing and some self generative sounds that gave me a basic evolving shifting sound and pulse for the recording that suited the mood I was looking for. So some of this recording is not so much me creating music, but shaping and moulding music that is being created by software and choosing the right voicings for that. A further three VSTi tracks were done which were relying solely on my input as to notes / timing - the VST only producing the voicing on these additional tracks.

The VST Plugins were either those included in the DAW I used for this recording (Magix Samplitude 2013) or they were free downloads (I'm a cheapskate at heart!).

Now .... if I could manage to work out how to use the guitar and the GR20 as a controller for the VSTi synths when I'm recording on the DAW that really would be interesting. I did look at the GR20 manual section on this when I was on holiday recently .... and my brain seriously started to hurt! I really need things to be as simple as possible in my advancing years. At least in using the keyboard / VSTi route I don't have to get bogged down in loads of instructions about routing and different MIDI channels etc. - it's very nearly plug'n'play which is worth a lot to me.

[VikingBlues]

Additional - particularly for VC. It's not anything blues like I'm afraid.

I did do another piece yesterday. As it includes several tracks of GR20 guitar synth as well as a couple of tracks of VSTi synths I thought I'd link it for you VC. The GR20 tracks are the more percussive sounds and the bendy note sounds, and the sound a bit like a sawmill. Was supposed to start life as gentle ambient, but the first VSTi preset I used was the seed for what became more like a Ghost type of soundscape.

https://soundcloud.com/vikingblues/ghos ... atmosphere